Religion Is Insanity

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Lacewing
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Lacewing »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:13 pm
Lacewing wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:15 pm Some of us are here to actually discuss and debate claims and beliefs, where they come from, and how much sense they make. What happens in those discussions is very revealing. Liars are unmasked and chased into corners. Some people come unhinged and fling in all directions... before they snap back to fight again in another argument. And any of us can bring out our dragons to play. It's quite the show.
...isn't a kind of self-defense?
No, why would it be? It's a statement about what goes on here, unlike your use of the forum for cartoons and rants.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:13 pm But he doesn't do those things to me.

Why?
It's because you don't debate or challenge him.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:13 pm Cuz he doesn't do any of that to anyone. that's why.
ALL of the people who have experienced this with him are not making it up. It is documented on this forum over YEARS. But you've already shown you're willing to back liars (even though I thought that was beneath you), and I'm sure he appreciates your blind friendship, so you two can be pinky-swear friends forever.
uwot
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by uwot »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:48 pm if someone says something I object to, it is my patriotic duty to take the piss out of them.

Well, he and me, we disagree...I don't accept his theism and he doesn't accept my deism...but neither of us object to the other, or the other's belief.
I'm not getting through here, am I? I'll try once more:
uwot wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:41 amAny belief that doesn't cause harm to others is fine by me and all part of life's rich tapestry - I like stories. But mealy mouthed apologists telling me I am irrational because I don't accept their crummy arguments, or that I wilfully deny what their god has made plain to me, is despicable.
Perhaps it will be easier to digest if I break it into little pieces and chew it up a bit for you. Here's the first slice:
uwot wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:41 amAny belief that doesn't cause harm to others is fine by me and all part of life's rich tapestry - I like stories.
From that you should be able to infer that it is not his christianity I object to. Christianity is a decent rework of various Mediterranean myths, mixed with some of Plato's more cynical propaganda and Roman political imperatives. So it's just a story to me. It is instead the second slice:
uwot wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:41 amBut mealy mouthed apologists telling me I am irrational because I don't accept their crummy arguments, or that I wilfully deny what their god has made plain to me, is despicable.
It's a philosophy forum, Mr Can tells us he is 'a philosopher and theologian both'. Fine, then he should know the rules: when he ran out of reason and resorted to accusing his interlocutors of being irrational or wilfully ignorant, he lost the game and should shut the fuck up. He is perfectly at liberty to carry on, and I am equally free to tell him he is talking bollocks. It's part of how philosophy works.
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henry quirk
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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It's a statement about what goes on here

Yeah, it doesn't seem that way to me. The forum overflows with manifestos, insult, and diatribe. And, no offense, but I haven't seen a lick of analysis comin' from you, on anything.


It's because you don't debate or challenge him.

Just cuz you didn't see it don't mean it didn't happen.


ALL of the people who have experienced this with him are not making it up.

I never said folks were makin' things up. I stated, up-thread, what I think is goin' on.
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Lacewing
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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seeds wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:22 pm However, when someone such as RCSaunders states the following,...
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:45 pm The human mind infected with religion is like the brain demented by drugs....all religious individuals are a little insane.
...then he is demonstrating his extreme lack of understanding and, especially, his lack of empathy in regards to how hard it is for the so-called "infected" minds to break free from their religious indoctrination.

Furthermore, as I mentioned in an earlier post, insane sounding nonsense is not strictly limited to the domain of religion, for it is most certainly witnessed in the "scientific" hypothesis that there may exist infinite copies of each and everyone of us existing in infinite (ever-branching) parallel universes (as per the MWI of quantum mechanics).
_______
Yes, it is a bit extreme to say it that way. :) And I agree that humankind is insane in many ways. I think such descriptions are essentially a backlash to how much religion has impacted humankind's reality and evolvement, on so many levels for so long. For some of us, that may seem horrific and inexplicable... and even a threat to humankind's awareness and survival.

In the same way different movements (such as "Me too") may seem over-the-top, destroying lives as they seek justice -- it's the pendulum swinging back hard to find balance after countless abuses throughout history. I wish the pendulum swing didn't have to be so severe, but how else can it happen? People intoxicated with patterns don't listen or see beyond them.

I think it's good to stop tip-toeing around religion and ask hard questions -- it shouldn't be off limits -- especially when people are making nonsense claims and representing something darkly self-serving.

Mankind has been imposing nonsense and abuse on others all throughout history. I think it's valuable to question everything!

I agree with you that compassion is important. It is difficult to step softly, though, when the movement is so huge and the fallout so significant.
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henry quirk
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by henry quirk »

I'm not getting through here, am I?

Sure you are.

As I told Lace: I laid out, up-thread, what I believe undergirds the interaction between you all and Mannie. I haven't seen anything in my back & forth with you or Lace that changes that opinion.
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Lacewing
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:49 pm
Lacewing wrote:It's a statement about what goes on here
Yeah, it doesn't seem that way to me. The forum overflows with manifestos, insult, and diatribe. And, no offense, but I haven't seen a lick of analysis comin' from you, on anything.
That doesn't mean anything. You apparently don't see quite a lot.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:49 pm
Lacewing wrote:It's because you don't debate or challenge him.
Just cuz you didn't see it don't mean it didn't happen.
Apply that stupid answer to what you said to me above.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:49 pm
Lacewing wrote:ALL of the people who have experienced this with him are not making it up.
I never said folks were makin' things up. I stated, up-thread, what I think is goin' on.
You said he doesn't do any of it to anyone. It would be more accurate for you to say you don't see it. Give him some credit for what goes on here. He is not a victim. He plays games -- like we all do -- and there are those who see that he uses deception while waving his Christian flag.
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henry quirk
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by henry quirk »

You apparently don't see quite a lot.

I see as much as you...I just see it all differently (and mebbe more clearly), is all.


He plays games

Nah...he has a strategy, a method...not the same as game-playin'.


Anyway: you got sumthin' new to put on the table, sumthin' to convince me?

As I say: you haven't so far.
uwot
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by uwot »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:59 pmI'm not getting through here, am I?

Sure you are.

As I told Lace: I laid out, up-thread, what I believe undergirds the interaction between you all and Mannie. I haven't seen anything in my back & forth with you or Lace that changes that opinion.
You have; you are just too irrational or wilfully ignorant to appreciate it.
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Lacewing
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Lacewing »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:25 pm You apparently don't see quite a lot.

I see as much as you...I just see it all differently (and mebbe more clearly), is all.
:lol: A rather bold claim that you cannot know.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:25 pm He plays games

Nah...he has a strategy, a method...not the same as game-playin'.
:lol: You don't think game-players have a strategy and method?
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:25 pm Anyway: you got sumthin' new to put on the table, sumthin' to convince me?

As I say: you haven't so far.
I don't care. You're too dense to deal with sometimes. Go play with your cigar.
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henry quirk
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by henry quirk »

uwot wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:30 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:59 pmI'm not getting through here, am I?

Sure you are.

As I told Lace: I laid out, up-thread, what I believe undergirds the interaction between you all and Mannie. I haven't seen anything in my back & forth with you or Lace that changes that opinion.
You have; you are just too irrational or wilfully ignorant to appreciate it.
That's possible. I'm just a man, and I have my biases and prejudices. It's entirely possible those biases and prejudices are colorin' my assessments.

That's been my point in all this back & forth.
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henry quirk
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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Lacewing wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:38 pm I don't care.
If that were the case you wouldn't have spent so much time, offered so many posts, tryin' to convince me I'm wrong and you're right.

Me: I care. I wouldn't be doin' this if I didn't.
uwot
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by uwot »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:42 pm I'm just a man, and I have my biases and prejudices. It's entirely possible those biases and prejudices are colorin' my assessments.
Well, the difference between you, me and Mr Can is while you think your biases and prejudices might colour your thinking, I know how my biases and prejudices colour my thinking, and Mr Can is so lacking in self awareness, he can't even accept that he has biases and weaknesses.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:42 pm That's been my point in all this back & forth.
So why did you drag Mr Can into your coming out speech?
Dubious
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Dubious »

Dubious wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:01 amI've been communicating with IC for a lot longer than you have.
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:25 pmYou have no way of knowing that.
Under your avatar it shows having joined July 17, 2018. Under my ID it's May 19, 2015. That's how I know unless you were here under a different name from one you now use which I doubt very much.
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:25 pmHypocrisy is usually an attempt by someone to convince others one believes as they do, to get on their good side. Who, exactly, is it you think IC is trying to get on the good side of? It is obviously not anyone on this site?
There are many sides to hypocrisy. You only listed a fairly mild one and not the more egregious types that actually apply in this case.
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:25 pmAnd that raises a second question. What difference does it make what anyone else believes, or pretends to, if you believe they do?
If you put your stuff out there expect to get challenged. That's the nature of debate. I don't know how many bloody times it has to be repeated; who cares about all the stupid shit he or anyone believes! It's the slimy underhanded ways he responds besides making assertions so supremely brain-dead that of course they'll be further challenged by questions which usually receive no answer or so glib they amount to an insult.
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:25 pmI really don't care about personalities, but if I were to address them at all, I'd defend IC's expression of his views, just as I would yours. Even if he chooses to be a hypocrite, I'd defend his freedom to be and say whatever he chooses. The hypocrisy of others is no danger to me.
I applaud your intent to defend his views, but you still don't get it. It seems straight-forward English has no meaning on philosophy forums anymore. So let me repeat once more that it's not a matter of what someone believes whatever its merit or lack of but when presented as an open debate then expect a debate to happen. Is there any confusion about this? If in service of views which have long escaped the confines of rationality those views are challenged would that not be expected? What else is a philosophy forum for?

Whoever said I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It confirms the right in equal measure to challenge what was said. If the response is one of glibness, intentional distortions of what others have objected to or found inconsistent followed by constant evasions to valid questions then call the spade what it really is which is exactly as already described. If you want to defend that, again it's your choice.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by RCSaunders »

Dubious wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:18 am
Dubious wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:01 amI've been communicating with IC for a lot longer than you have.
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:25 pmYou have no way of knowing that.
Under your avatar it shows having joined July 17, 2018. Under my ID it's May 19, 2015. That's how I know unless you were here under a different name from one you now use which I doubt very much.
I was only pointing out that assumptions are never certain. PhilosophyNow is hardley the only medium of conversation between people. For all you know, I might be IC's neighbor and have had debates with him for thirty or more years. [I'm not, and we haven't, but you couldn't have known that.]
Dubious wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:18 am I applaud your intent to defend his views, but you still don't get it.
I have never defended IC's views and have had long debates with him. I only defend his freedom to hold and promote his views, as I do yours.

I do not believe the purpose of philosophy is to win arguments or debates, but to discover knowledge. Discussion on a forum, such as this, is certainly not going to settle anything, but discussion can be valuable to one's own learning or simple interest and it is sometimes possible to contribute something someone else finds value in, which is rewarding. That's my only interest. I wasn't challenging you, by the way, only truly curious about what you are interested in and why.[/quote]
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henry quirk
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by henry quirk »

uwot wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:35 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:42 pm I'm just a man, and I have my biases and prejudices. It's entirely possible those biases and prejudices are colorin' my assessments.
Well, the difference between you, me and Mr Can is while you think your biases and prejudices might colour your thinking, I know how my biases and prejudices colour my thinking, and Mr Can is so lacking in self awareness, he can't even accept that he has biases and weaknesses.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:42 pm That's been my point in all this back & forth.
So why did you drag Mr Can into your coming out speech?
You misunderstand: my point isn't that I have biases and prejudices that can color judgement (which I do; and they often do) but that you folks goin' after Mannie have biases and prejudices (which you admit to) that can color your judgements (which you say do color your judgements...and thank you for the admission).

If you have a prejudice, know it can or does skew your assessments, then mebbe Mannie isn't the crapsack you believe he is. Mebbe there's a bias skewin' your assessment of him.

Or not.

Anyway: I got nuthin' more to add but repetition, and I don't wanna do that, so...
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