THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Dachshund
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THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by Dachshund »

If you travel to the geographical centre of the Australian continent, which is located in the midst of a large, harsh desert called the Simpson desert, you will find that looking up into the starry night sky there immediately "blows your mind." There is no light pollution here and consequently the stars above you - countless thousands of them - shine with a splendorous, intense brilliance.



Whether or not the starry night sky you are gazing into from this remote vantage point in the Simpson desert is actually infinite, the appearance of the stars provokes a strong intuition of infinity - of that which is boundless and limitless; of that which is absolutely great in magnitude and power.



This starry night sky in the desert is an example of an aesthetic category that Edmund Burke, an 18th century philosopher and politician termed the (natural) "sublime." He introduced the aesthetic concept of the sublime in a famous essay he wrote entitled: A Philosophical Inquiry into the Origins of our Ideas of the Beautiful and Sublime" which was published in 1757 in London. Until the appearance of Burke's "Inquiry", the philosophy of aesthetics in Western Europe had predominantly been concerned with investigating the nature of beauty, now an extra aesthetic category had been added - the "sublime."



THE NATURE OF THE SUBLIME



According to Burke, pain is a more powerful "emotion" than pleasure, and those things in the natural world that trigger ideas of pain when we contemplate them are "sublime." He provides a definition of the "sublime" as follows...




"Whatever is fitted in any sort to excite the ideas of pain and danger, that is to say, whatever is in any sort terrible, or is conversant about terrible objects, or operates in a manner analogous to terror, is a source of the sublime, that is, it is productive of the strongest emotions which the mind is capable of feeling."



More specifically, the (natural) sublime is experienced when we are placed in the presence of things that are terrifyingly vast and/or powerful BUT at a safe distance, so that we do not experience the actual life-threatening terror of something that could indeed annihilate us.



For example, when you contemplate the incomprehensible enormity of the Pacific ocean: its tremendous size, its profound dark depths, the dangerous, strange, frightening creature that are lurking below the surface (giant squids, octopodes, Killer Whales/ massive Sperm Whales, Great White Sharks, giant clams, sting rays, poisonous jelly fish, etc.), how the ocean could swallow you up in the blink of an eye, the awesome destructive power it possesses and so on , from the safety of the deck of a large commercial ocean liner (not the "Titanic"), or from a beach on the Pacific coastline, that is from a place where there is no genuine existential threat to which you are exposed (no real and direct threat to your life) you will experience the hallmark feelings of sublimity.



THE "DELIGHTFUL HORROR" OF THE SUBLIME




One of the primary characteristic of an encounter with the sublime is what Burke call the feeling/sensing of a "delightful horror." The later is a key phrase for understanding his aesthetics of the sublime; the experience of this "delightful horror" is an "acid test" for determining whether one has had a genuine encounter with the (natural) sublime (I must quickly mention that for the sake of brevity, I am only discussing sublime objects/events in the physical, natural world, but one can also experience the sublime in different contexts, such as in poetry. The poetry of the late 18th/ early 19th in England written by poets Blake, Wordsworth, Keats, Coleridge and Shelly during the Romantic movement are rich sources of the sublime; also,certain genres of artwork of around the same period, for example the oil paintings of Kasper David Friedrich are renowned representations of the aesthetic sublime. Equally, if ever you are lucky enough the have a good seat in an auditorium where the London Symphony Orchestra are belting out a live performance of Richard Wager's "Ride of the Valkyries" you will experience a magnificent sublimity). To continue. To make sense of the term "delightful horror" it is essential to appreciate that for Burke, "delight" is not synonymous with "pleasure." His concept of "delight" express that which accompanies the REMOVAL of pain or danger. "Delight", unlike pleasure is, Burke says, a passion (feeling) of "solid, strong and severe nature" that enlivens a sense of fortitude and "exertion" (i.e; "delight" is not merely relief). Pleasure, on the other hand, is an indolent, voluptuous passion; for example the pleasure a heroin addict experiences when s/he injects a dose of the drug soon renders him enervated, languid, devitalised, aimless and irresolute, etc.



THE DESERT SKY AT NIGHT IN AUSTRALIA




I 'd like to explain this example of the sublime in a little more detail so that I might encourage the reader to experiment for him/herself in order to guage whether what I am going to claim in concluding this post sounds reasonable. Of course it need not be the night sky in the Australian desert that you use to encounter the sublime, but the night sky in any remote area near where you live in your own country (US, UK, Canada, etc.) The place where you go to observe the night sky must be remote enough to be free of urban light pollution, this means you might need to drive out into an undeveloped rural area or your own local desert if you have one (!) The place you observe from must be perfectly (or as near perfectly silent as can be. You should not take any friends with you, rather go alone, because it is very important to eliminate any kinds of actual or potential distractions ( that includes noise from your car radio, say, - turn it off; likewise do attempt your star-gazing mission on a windy night when the rustling sound of wind-stirred vegetation like the leaves on tree branches, or the howling/whistling sound of a gale etc; will impair your ability to maintain focused attention ). On the night you chose to go, the sky, of course must be clear (not obscured by clouds or mist or fog and so on) Finally when you look up into your starry night shy keep yourself as a psychologist would say, "in the moment", that is totally empty your mind of any preoccupations with other things (any cares, worries , plans, thoughts about work, memories) that are going on in your life and immerse yourself 100% in the "here and now."




So, your're thinking why should I go through all the trouble of organising this, in particular since it is Dachshund telling to do it and he is a crazy racist (a White Nationalist nut job) a Conservative arsehole who loves Donald Trump and so on. Well, the answer is that if you do it right, you just might get a chance to "know" what it's like to connect with God (even if it is only momentary hook-up) without dropping a big tab of LSD-25 :D




OK, I'm now going to go through the experience of star-gazing in the Australian desert again. (I've personally done this a number of times BTW).




Right in the centre of Australia in the heart of the Simpson desert a giant monolith called Ayer's Rock, actually its now known by its aboriginal name which is "Uluru", it is a sacred site for Aboriginals who lived on the Australian continent for some 60,000 years before English colonists first arrived on the east coast, (where the city of Sydney is now located) in 1788 on a fleet of ships (convict hulks) that had set sail from Portsmouth in the old country. Uluru is quite a spectacular sight and over the years it has become an increasingly popular tourist attraction. Local aboriginals are employed to tell visitors all about their ancient folklore and the many legends associated with giant monolith. They also entertain and visiting foreigners with demonstrations of traditional dancing, music, drama, sacred rituals, hunting techniques. They also educate groups of tourists with regard to interesting aspects of ancient aboriginal mythology and spirituality like the meaning of the "Dream Time" and the significance of legendary creatures like the "Rainbow Serpent Monster" and the "Bunyips." There is good quality accommodation for visiting Americans, Japanese and Brits replete with all of the latest creature comforts (like air-conditioning which is essential in a place where daily temperature in the desert can soar up to 50 degrees celsius) In the evenings sumptuous meals of traditional Australian cuisine (giant Bar-B-Q cooked steaks and so on) are prepared by chefs and served with home - grown wine and, of course a wide range of popular Australian beers.




"Uluru" is very remote , it is situated many miles away from the nearest forms of any civilization in terms of outback town or cities towns, therefore at night there is absolutely no "light pollution",and consequently the night sky in the vicinity of Uluru is a astonishing sight; in fact, it has become a tourist attraction in its own right The best way the experience the night sky is to walk about 500 meters out into the Simpson desert from Uluru on your own. This is in order to escape any noise coming from the main tourist base (music, chatter, 4WD engines, etc). When you done this you'll find that you are enveloped in the deserts characteristic uncanny, dead -silent stillness. The air is suffused with a quality of apprehension - an kind of unsettling "haunted" quality because you are immersed in what you perceive as being too still and too silent.And you sense the eerie, quasi- palpable presence of.... ??



When you look up into the night sky from where you are standing and gaze upon the magnificent profusion of 1000's of brilliant stars and constellation you experience a pressing intuition of infinite, unlimited space, of a boundless black void that contains with a seemingly infinite number of galaxies (like the "Milky Way" which is clearly visible in all its wondrous beauty) stars and planets and other distant cosmic objects, There is also a strong intimation of power as well as magnitude, and it quickly occurs to you, upon reflection, that only some awesome, almighty power could have created this astounding spectacle. (And) you will immediately feel yourself shrink into the relatively inconsequential minuteness of your own nature and you will feel, in a sense that you have been existentially annihilated by the sheer enormity of the limitless grandeur and infinte majesty of what you behold.



Every normal, healthy adult who travels to "Uluru" to view the night sky in the way I suggested: alone, and cut off from any distractions, experiences the same sequence of feeling when the encounter the sublimity of the stars above them at night in the desert. The first feeling experienced is that of awe or astonishment, and this is followed by secondary emotions of admiration, reverence and respect. The initial sense of awe/astonishment that is felt, - which I'll call "the sublime moment" -, is due to the sudden, shocking incapacitation of reason, the processes of rational cognition are all abruptly derailed. No reasoning is involved in the initial encounter with the sublimity if the starry night sky in the desert. This is because what the mind is focused on is simply to great to understand. The sublimity of the desert night sky takes hold of the mind and triggers a momentary inhibition - a "short circuit" - of the vital powers; immediately following this there in then an all the more powerful outpouring of them. This lifts the strength of the soul up beyond its usual level and what is felt is the Burkean passion of "delight" which I discussed above in the context of the term "delightful horror/terror". Finally, the subject feels the emotions of admiration, respect and reverence for the seemingly boundless expanse, power, splendour and ineffable magnificence of the desert's starry night sky he has encountered.




The fact that we can take delight in terror - that we are naturally fit to experience the sublime in nature - was evidence for Burke that we live in an enchanted world commanded by an awesome power that will forever remain incomprehensible to us, beyond our ability to grssp with our limited rational/cognitive faculties. He explicitly associates the sublime with the notion of a powerful divinity that is defined by the fact that it is inaccessible to human reason.


THE SUBLIME MOMENT





The sublime moment is that moment of awe/astonishment that is experienced when one first gazes upon a genuinely sublime natural object/event/process. I agree with those who argue that this is a transcendent experience. The essential charm of the sublime is that man can in feeling and in speech transcend the human. During the moment of the sublime the surface is broken, the discourse brakes down, and the rational faculties are checked and suspended. A discontinuity then opens up between that which can be grasped by reason and what is felt to be meaningful. The analytical,logical/rational comparing power of the mind is suspended and it is then possessed with a feeling of absolute unity without a conscious contemplation of component parts. Is this experience of unity the result of an fleeting inter-subjective communion with the divine ?



I think the answer is, "Yes, it is".



Regards



Dachshund (Der Uberweiner) WOOF !! WOOF !!
mickthinks
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by mickthinks »

I'm going to recycle a post I made back in July
mickthinks wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:33 am I'm going to recycle a post I made back in June
mickthinks wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:22 pm I'm going to recycle a post I made back in '15
mickthinks wrote: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:35 amWHY DO YOU SHOUT YOUR SUBJECT HEADING AT US IN UPPERCASE? IS IT BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR TOPICS ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OTHER PEOPLE'S AND NEED MORE ATTENTION?
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

''A dingo took my baby...''
Dachshund
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by Dachshund »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:02 am ''A dingo took my baby...''

Lindy Chamberlain never actually said that, Vegetable; it's an urban myth.

Dachshund (Der Uberweiner)

PS: It a shame that the point I was making in my post about the sublime, went over your low brow. But I guess you can't expect feral KIWIs to be able to grasp subtle issues in the philosophy of aesthetics. Never mind, Veggie, just carry on with with taxidermy. What are we gutting, stuffing and preserving today ?
Last edited by Dachshund on Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Dachshund wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:31 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:02 am ''A dingo took my baby...''

Lindy Chamberlain never actually said that, Vegetable; it's an urban myth.

Dachshund (Der Uberweiner)
How else would she put it?
Dachshund
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by Dachshund »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:39 am
Dachshund wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:31 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:02 am ''A dingo took my baby...''

Lindy Chamberlain never actually said that, Vegetable; it's an urban myth.

Dachshund (Der Uberweiner)
How else would she put it?
I'll tell you later. I'm busy at the moment with my dinner (cooking it)

D
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Dachshund wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:42 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:39 am
Dachshund wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:31 am


Lindy Chamberlain never actually said that, Vegetable; it's an urban myth.

Dachshund (Der Uberweiner)
How else would she put it?
I'll tell you later. I'm busy at the moment with my dinner (cooking it)

D
Don't bother. It was a rhetorical question. If a dingo takes your baby then there really aren't a heck of a lot of ways to say it.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

I can appreciate the contents of the OP but why conclude it with the 'divine'.
Generally, human beings are evolved to be uncomfortable with duality, i.e. cognitive dissonances and will strive to seek consonance and unity.
Upon achieving consonance and unity the pleasure circuit is triggered, thus a sense of good feelings [from simple pleasure, feeling good, orgasmic pleasure to awe, epiphany and the likes ].
There is a range of pleasurable good feelings in proportion to the complexity of the duality and unity.

In your case of the unity and consonance of the complex web of stars and universe with the existence of the self, there is a trigger of a greater sense of sublime good feelings of awe. Such greater feelings of exhilaration, awe of the sublime do has utility for humanity where the erosion of the ego promote greater understanding, empathy and co-operation between humans.

In truth there is no need to bring in the 'divine.'
The incorporation of the divine is due to more complex dissonances arising from the existential crisis that induce sublime fears [mortality, perdition, hell, etc.] as well.

I believe when one is able to realize greater consonance from the existential cognitive dissonance, one will experience a greater sense of awe of reality and stability.
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by Impenitent »

the sublime is never under the lemon tree...

-Imp
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Impenitent wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:21 am the sublime is never under the lemon tree...

-Imp
what about 'that' apple tree?
Impenitent
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by Impenitent »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:56 am
Impenitent wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:21 am the sublime is never under the lemon tree...

-Imp
what about 'that' apple tree?
steve jobs is dead

-Imp
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Impenitent wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:31 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:56 am
Impenitent wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:21 am the sublime is never under the lemon tree...

-Imp
what about 'that' apple tree?
steve jobs is dead

-Imp
I thought Newton did discovered sublime natural laws?
Impenitent
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by Impenitent »

newtons are for figs not apples...

-Imp
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

figs??
  • Newton's apple: The real story

    It is the manuscript for what would become a biography of Newton entitled Memoirs of Sir Isaac Newton’s Life written by William Stukeley, an archaeologist and one of Newton’s first biographers, and published in 1752. Newton told the apple story to Stukeley, who relayed it as such:

    “After dinner, the weather being warm, we went into the garden and drank tea, under the shade of some apple trees…he told me, he was just in the same situation, as when formerly, the notion of gravitation came into his mind. It was occasion’d by the fall of an apple, as he sat in contemplative mood. Why should that apple always descend perpendicularly to the ground, thought he to himself…”

    Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/21 ... z60bQ23CH3
Impenitent
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Re: THE DIVINE SUBLIME

Post by Impenitent »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:40 am figs??
  • Newton's apple: The real story

    It is the manuscript for what would become a biography of Newton entitled Memoirs of Sir Isaac Newton’s Life written by William Stukeley, an archaeologist and one of Newton’s first biographers, and published in 1752. Newton told the apple story to Stukeley, who relayed it as such:

    “After dinner, the weather being warm, we went into the garden and drank tea, under the shade of some apple trees…he told me, he was just in the same situation, as when formerly, the notion of gravitation came into his mind. It was occasion’d by the fall of an apple, as he sat in contemplative mood. Why should that apple always descend perpendicularly to the ground, thought he to himself…”

    Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/21 ... z60bQ23CH3
Image

-Imp
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