Selfish God

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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gaffo
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Re: Selfish God

Post by gaffo » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:51 am

attofishpi wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:33 pm
gaffo wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:08 am
attofishpi wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:17 am


FUCK IT - I know (of) this entity...and I'll say it:-

'GOD' suffered CHAOS. CHRIST'S physical pain was a blip in the ocean in comparison, IT just wanted us to comprehend suffering and to respect IT.

LOVE ? for what it suffered to form us and our reality, yes you should.
as you should know by now I'm an Athiest nor anti-religion.

from your earlier posts i know you are a Christian, and would welcome your views (for my personal wisdom - not into slamming anyone's Faith - of any religion).

I know of several faiths from reading the texts and so not an ignoramous.

this forum is here - ideally for disscussion rather than invective, and so would like to understand your version of your faith.
Mr gaffo - I have pointed you to threads where I have been discussing this, last time you asked exactly the same thing, but you never responded. You are asking again!

So ask me a direct question regarding what I might know regarding this 'God' entity and my 'faith' with regards to this 'Christ' entity.
:)
i missed those replies, i thank for this reply though.

I don't have any particular question, only would like to understand your views on "god". welcome any reply direct or indirect on the matter Sir.

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Re: Selfish God

Post by attofishpi » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:23 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:51 am
attofishpi wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:33 pm
gaffo wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:08 am


as you should know by now I'm an Athiest nor anti-religion.

from your earlier posts i know you are a Christian, and would welcome your views (for my personal wisdom - not into slamming anyone's Faith - of any religion).

I know of several faiths from reading the texts and so not an ignoramous.

this forum is here - ideally for disscussion rather than invective, and so would like to understand your version of your faith.
Mr gaffo - I have pointed you to threads where I have been discussing this, last time you asked exactly the same thing, but you never responded. You are asking again!

So ask me a direct question regarding what I might know regarding this 'God' entity and my 'faith' with regards to this 'Christ' entity.
:)
i missed those replies, i thank for this reply though.

I don't have any particular question, only would like to understand your views on "god". welcome any reply direct or indirect on the matter Sir.
gaffo - here I am stating I have had 22 years of direct experience of this entity, and you state that you have no direct question of me, yet want to know my 'views'..

Again, here:-
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25753&sid=3c2d4b77 ... c5ba9de587

Since you are an agnostic atheist - you really should put me to the test and ask me of my 'knowledge' of this 'God' entity.

...but I will ask you this - do you have more understanding of how to make good fitting dovetails for a wooden drawer, or how to write a computer program?

gaffo
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Re: Selfish God

Post by gaffo » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:31 am

attofishpi wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:23 am
gaffo wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:51 am
attofishpi wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:33 pm


Mr gaffo - I have pointed you to threads where I have been discussing this, last time you asked exactly the same thing, but you never responded. You are asking again!

So ask me a direct question regarding what I might know regarding this 'God' entity and my 'faith' with regards to this 'Christ' entity.
:)
i missed those replies, i thank for this reply though.

I don't have any particular question, only would like to understand your views on "god". welcome any reply direct or indirect on the matter Sir.
gaffo - here I am stating I have had 22 years of direct experience of this entity, and you state that you have no direct question of me, yet want to know my 'views'..

Again, here:-
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25753&sid=3c2d4b77 ... c5ba9de587
thank you for posting your thread and answering my inquery.

I'm dumb, and so i did not understand your view of "god" - seemed mystical to my limited intelligence, but could not understand it.

i did undertand one thing, that empiricism (science) does not dissprove God - in your view.

i do not agree, i view science is counter to beleive in God, empiricism does no prove the non-existance of god, but implies it via lack of prove of such a being showing himself via scientific expiriments.

so far, with 200 centuries of experiments we have a Cartisian view of the universe (though that imo may just be "appearences" - and Hume may be correct in this matter instead).

I'm dumb, and of limited mind, i think it if folly to claim knowledge of God - a being infinately above is assuming he exists.

i'm an ant, not only do i not of the sidewalk a foot away, i know nothing of the sidewalks maker either.

I am infinetly and inherently unable to know such matters, and so stopped looking for answers to question that are probably infinately wrong too.

refer to Robert Sheckley's Ask a Foolish Question.

that short story is my view on the matter of "life".

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33854/3 ... 3854-h.htm

attofishpi wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:23 am
Since you are an agnostic atheist - you really should put me to the test and ask me of my 'knowledge' of this 'God' entity.
nope, to ask such is folly IMO.

refer to my above reference to Sheckley's short story,


I have no interest in asking you a question that probably has no relation to the nature of our existance, and also that you lack the nature to know the answer to the question - that even if you know the answer, is not relevent to the "true nature of things".


UNLESS!!!!!!!!! YOU are The Answerer (or not really - for I'm not The Answerer,even if you were, so no - its folly)



attofishpi wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:23 am
...but I will ask you this - do you have more understanding of how to make good fitting dovetails for a wooden drawer, or how to write a computer program?
oh!i do value pragmatism! - the former probably, i'm a decent woodworker. I know how to "Build" (assemble like most chimps can) computers, assembled 5 or 6 since the early 90's. took simple Basic and Pascal as a HS/col freshman, but sucked at it then, utterly too dumb to program anything sadly.

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Re: Selfish God

Post by attofishpi » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:53 am

gaffo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:31 am
attofishpi wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:23 am
gaffo wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:51 am


i missed those replies, i thank for this reply though.

I don't have any particular question, only would like to understand your views on "god". welcome any reply direct or indirect on the matter Sir.
gaffo - here I am stating I have had 22 years of direct experience of this entity, and you state that you have no direct question of me, yet want to know my 'views'..

Again, here:-
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25753&sid=3c2d4b77 ... c5ba9de587
thank you for posting your thread and answering my inquery.

I'm dumb, and so i did not understand your view of "god" - seemed mystical to my limited intelligence, but could not understand it.
No, i'm pretty certain you know you are not dumb and I appreciate your inquiry.

gaffo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:31 am
i did undertand one thing, that empiricism (science) does not dissprove God - in your view.

i do not agree, i view science is counter to beleive in God, empiricism does no prove the non-existance of god, but implies it via lack of prove of such a being showing himself via scientific expiriments.
There is no empirical proof that there IS or ISN'T a 'God'. Though, I will state it would take a lot less effort by a physicist to prove its existence, than it would for a physicist to prove its NON existence - for to prove it doesn't exist would require knowing everything about the universe and perhaps the multiverse.

gaffo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:31 am
so far, with 200 centuries of experiments we have a Cartisian view of the universe (though that imo may just be "appearences" - and Hume may be correct in this matter instead).

I'm dumb, and of limited mind, i think it if folly to claim knowledge of God - a being infinately above is assuming he exists.
I'm of limited mind, but I don't consider you dumb but I understand you with your limitations to nail me as foolish.

What is this 'God' INFINITELY above?

The word 'infinite' is possibly the most overused word amongst 'thinkers'...and I'm not sure what you mean by 'above'.

gaffo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:31 am
i'm an ant, not only do i not of the sidewalk a foot away, i know nothing of the sidewalks maker either.

I am infinetly and inherently unable to know such matters, and so stopped looking for answers to question that are probably infinately wrong too.
Actually, I should point out that you are a human, and that there is a great deal more than a pavement that you understand.

I hate the use of 'infinite' - i'm not a great believer in it.

So am I correct to presume your statement implies:- IF there is a 'God', one could not be made aware of its existence?

gaffo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:31 am
refer to Robert Sheckley's Ask a Foolish Question.

that short story is my view on the matter of "life".

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33854/3 ... 3854-h.htm
My TV wouldn't load it, maybe i'll bother later on my PC.

gaffo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:31 am
attofishpi wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:23 am
Since you are an agnostic atheist - you really should put me to the test and ask me of my 'knowledge' of this 'God' entity.
nope, to ask such is folly IMO.

refer to my above reference to Sheckley's short story,

I have no interest in asking you a question that probably has no relation to the nature of our existance, and also that you lack the nature to know the answer to the question - that even if you know the answer, is not relevent to the "true nature of things".
It wasn't whether I had the or an answer, rather, that you were given the opportunity to ask someone that claims they have knowledge. Since you are fervent in your atheism, and consider anyone claiming to have a little knowledge of this 'God' entity as foolish, I understand, but it's rather short sighted on your part.


gaffo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:31 am
UNLESS!!!!!!!!! YOU are The Answerer (or not really - for I'm not The Answerer,even if you were, so no - its folly)
ok.

gaffo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:31 am
attofishpi wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:23 am
...but I will ask you this - do you have more understanding of how to make good fitting dovetails for a wooden drawer, or how to write a computer program?
oh!i do value pragmatism! - the former probably, i'm a decent woodworker. I know how to "Build" (assemble like most chimps can) computers, assembled 5 or 6 since the early 90's. took simple Basic and Pascal as a HS/col freshman, but sucked at it then, utterly too dumb to program anything sadly.
ok.

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Re: Selfish God

Post by gaffo » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:29 am

attofishpi wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:53 am

My TV wouldn't load it, maybe i'll bother later on my PC.




yes you may have to cut the cord to your TV and go to your PC (my TV has been my PC for 20 yrs now, but that is another story).

then, forget your TV, and go to your PC, and look up his short Story, Ask a Foolish Question (BTW - Sheckley was a genious - one of several now forgotten today (though of some note back in his day - 50's and 60's (X minus one NBC radiodrama made adaptations of at least 5 or so of his works in the late 50's.

"X-Minus One (Cold Equations is heart rending) - not Sheckley story - but the author and the radio adaptors/actors have my full respect!!!!!!!!!!

internet archive has all the X-minus ones. X-minus one is the thinking mans Radiodrama - late 50's.

remains the gold standard on social themes, character dev and over story arches.

Mindwebs (70's WHA) and Nightfall (Cancadian 80's) - are also great - and forgotten today sadly,

but also in "Internet Archive" for you to listen to and appreciate.

..................................

The Canticle of Leibowtiz, is also there (1980) - heart breaking, but wise story of man's folly and endless war.................i bought the audio CD's of that series in 2004, and unploaded it in "HD" to the Usenet, before ZBS no longer offered it - post 2006, the torrents - if they are of 168 VBR may be from me indirectly.

Internet Archive also has "the canticle of leiwbotiz" - though of lesser quallity that my uploads 15 yrs ago.......ITS THERE and that is all that matters.

- go listen to.............depressing an fk, but human/humane- so do so Sir.

AND that Radioplay was based upon Walter Miller Jr (ww2 vet who killed himself in late 90's sadly) author of The Canticle of Leibowitz.

one of the greated Science Fiction works (or more aptly one of the greatest literary works) of all time (1960?)

its still in print, read the book, hear the radioplay!

gaffo
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Re: Selfish God

Post by gaffo » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:42 am

seriously. i implore you to listen to the full "the canticle of liebowitz" - it over in internet archive, as said. you can google it.

listen to it (then read the book - its rare that a latter work is as good as the original, but the 1980 radioplay is equal to the original book - not better nor worse, just equal, and both are perfection WRT to the human condition.

seriously, i've noted and corrospodended with your posts, and so know you have a mind/heart - hear/read the work, and after hearing/reading it......................get back to me in June or so, and lets discuss!!!!!!!!!!!

ok?

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Re: Selfish God

Post by attofishpi » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:12 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:42 am
seriously. i implore you to listen to the full "the canticle of liebowitz" - it over in internet archive, as said. you can google it.

listen to it (then read the book - its rare that a latter work is as good as the original, but the 1980 radioplay is equal to the original book - not better nor worse, just equal, and both are perfection WRT to the human condition.

seriously, i've noted and corrospodended with your posts, and so know you have a mind/heart - hear/read the work, and after hearing/reading it......................get back to me in June or so, and lets discuss!!!!!!!!!!!

ok?
...um, maybe. Are you of the opinion that I in particular should listen\read this more than others on the forum, and for what reason?

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Re: Selfish God

Post by attofishpi » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:01 pm

gaffo wrote:refer to Robert Sheckley's Ask a Foolish Question.

that short story is my view on the matter of "life".

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33854/3 ... 3854-h.htm
Ok, read it.

Answerer, 'IT, knew the answers to the questions, but simply couldn't be bothered or as maybe was implied, was too distant with its knowledge to understand how to answer man's 'simple' questions.
The example was used when the men realised this by considering themselves as bushman in comparison to a physicist, by suggesting they would not be able to explain to a bushman why he when he shoots his arrow it would not hit the Sun.
I think that's rather short sighted, no pun intended, and rather arrogant on their part. Given time, they could explain to a bushman the fundamentals as to why the arrow would not hit the Sun. I guess this is an old piece of writing where arrogance amidst the white collar was common. They considered the fella in the bush as unintelligent, rather than just lacking knowledge.
Getting back to this 'Answerer' that knows EVERYTHING, but was too stupid (lacked the intelligence) to know how to answer a physicist, well ya, wot a waste - pretty much a database served by a dipshit.

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Re: Selfish God

Post by gaffo » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:46 am

attofishpi wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:12 am
gaffo wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:42 am
seriously. i implore you to listen to the full "the canticle of liebowitz" - it over in internet archive, as said. you can google it.

listen to it (then read the book - its rare that a latter work is as good as the original, but the 1980 radioplay is equal to the original book - not better nor worse, just equal, and both are perfection WRT to the human condition.

seriously, i've noted and corrospodended with your posts, and so know you have a mind/heart - hear/read the work, and after hearing/reading it......................get back to me in June or so, and lets discuss!!!!!!!!!!!

ok?
...um, maybe. Are you of the opinion that I in particular should listen\read this more than others on the forum, and for what reason?
not more than 1/2 here, but you are like "foghorn leghorn" ( i never noted his/her name - my bad) (an Aussie as you are? )- and Walker (though a Trumper - a fact i have mental troubles with, but i work with trumpers too - whom my head is still swimming over it - and respect as persons knowing them years prior). I've noted your posts and value them, as i noted 1/2 others that lack value and no longer note.

and so i think from noting your prior posts you would like to read/listen to A Canticle for Lebowitz, a top ten literary work in the last century.....and utterly forgotten today.

noting that reading take more time than hearing (and noting the Radioplay is equal to the written work - a rare thing indeed, but in this particular case its true............and after hearing the work (its over on The Internet Archive) - you will be forced to read the written work afterward.

as i was.

thanks for reply Sir.

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Re: Selfish God

Post by gaffo » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:11 am

attofishpi wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:01 pm
gaffo wrote:refer to Robert Sheckley's Ask a Foolish Question.

that short story is my view on the matter of "life".

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33854/3 ... 3854-h.htm
Ok, read it.

Answerer, 'IT, knew the answers to the questions, but simply couldn't be bothered or as maybe was implied, was too distant with its knowledge to understand how to answer man's 'simple' questions.
The example was used when the men realised this by considering themselves as bushman in comparison to a physicist, by suggesting they would not be able to explain to a bushman why he when he shoots his arrow it would not hit the Sun.
yes but the parallel is orders of magintude - infintely farther.

Bushman = modern man = still clueless,

ask Lek! who "skipped stars" and the #18 fellow who was born from that rule - just apearing without space.

they were as clueless - locked in their own perceptions of reality.

WRT to them, the Bushman and Modern man are the same! - and all infinately wrong in understanding of reality.


BTW the Bushman vs modern man conclusion was made by the modern man in the story, not by Answerer, and Answerer stated he was wrong!

lol.
attofishpi wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:01 pm
I think that's rather short sighted, no pun intended, and rather arrogant on their part.
Don't disparage Sheckley, he was no neo-colonialist.

remove your PC cultural bias per this short story, the author was bigger than this mentality.

attofishpi wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:01 pm
Given time, they could explain to a bushman the fundamentals as to why the arrow would not hit the Sun.
yes, and all the equations in the world explaining gravity, and fusion of stars etc.............nature of the universe per the educated modern man teaching the bushman = equals a bushman with the same concept if the universe as the modern man.

and utterly wrong.

as "Answerer" said to the modern man (sorry i forget his man - lingman was the dying companion - i rem the dying man's name not his "Self assured" companion), and Lek and the tiny rule of 18 born next to the cold star.

all were clueless and have utterly different self assured understanding of the nature of Reality.

but only Answerer knew of True Reality.

attofishpi wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:01 pm
I guess this is an old piece of writing where arrogance amidst the white collar was common.
see above, your conclusion disshonours Sheckley and shows a flippant bias on your part.

the work is universal, not "anglo-colonial" centric.

attofishpi wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:01 pm
They considered the fella in the bush as unintelligent, rather than just lacking knowledge.
"they"? who is "they"?

- lingman's assisant was an ass........even by end of the story is learned nothing, only that "the answerer" could not affirm his view of reality.

lingman was wise and understood, then died.
attofishpi wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:01 pm
Getting back to this 'Answerer' that knows EVERYTHING, but was too stupid (lacked the intelligence) to know how to answer a physicist, well ya, wot a waste - pretty much a database served by a dipshit.
WTF??????? answerer knew physics was rot, along with Lek's view of the Purple Mound, knowing the bigger picture (so past Purple Mound, Rule of 18 and Physics - all are wrong and not even related to reality in any way!).

if you thought Answerer was stoopid, well...........you can figure it out.

Answerer sat. neither small nor large, awaiting creatures to ask him the nature of the universe, duration continued.
attofishpi wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:01 pm
to know how to answer a physicist
no point to bother.

do you talk to ants on the sidewalk? explain to them about how man made the concrete they walk on?

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Re: Selfish God

Post by gaffo » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:20 am

thanks for taking the time to read the short story by Sheckley - i think you got some of it, but missed the bigger picture, but that ok, maybe you will re-read it later some day.

sheckley wrote many other good storys in the 50's and had several adapted via Radioplays, X-Minus One, and Mindwebs.

both excellent radioplays/readings - also on Internet Archive.

do try to hear/read Canticle for Liebowitz, masterpeice of universal humanism (author Walter Miller Jr was troubled bombing monti cassino and sadly commited suicide many decades later (late 90"s?).

thanks anyway for replies.

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Re: Selfish God

Post by attofishpi » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:38 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:20 am
thanks for taking the time to read the short story by Sheckley - i think you got some of it, but missed the bigger picture, but that ok, maybe you will re-read it later some day.
Hi Sir Gaffo, sorry but I am really really busy atm. I can't reply to your previous post breakdown.

As far as the 'bigger picture' goes, that's the part that I most definitely did not miss.

Answerer had been waiting for aeons for someone that it could explain the secrets of the universe to. It knows EVERYTHING, ergo, it knows everything about anyone that is about to ask it a question, and HOW to answer the question. It knows, that although a physicist will be limited in his\her understanding (and the question extreeeeemeeeely lacking) IT WOULD know how to communicate an answer to that physicist.

On this basis, I'm sorry, but the entire story is little more than an oxymoron.

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Re: Selfish God

Post by gaffo » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:58 am

attofishpi wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:38 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:20 am
thanks for taking the time to read the short story by Sheckley - i think you got some of it, but missed the bigger picture, but that ok, maybe you will re-read it later some day.
Hi Sir Gaffo, sorry but I am really really busy atm. I can't reply to your previous post breakdown.

As far as the 'bigger picture' goes, that's the part that I most definitely did not miss.

Answerer had been waiting for aeons for someone that it could explain the secrets of the universe to. It knows EVERYTHING, ergo, it knows everything about anyone that is about to ask it a question, and HOW to answer the question. It knows, that although a physicist will be limited in his\her understanding (and the question extreeeeemeeeely lacking)

not lacking, but literally an non-sequitur

attofishpi wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:38 pm
IT WOULD know how to communicate an answer to that physicist.
Answerer would not bother to in effect "lie" in any answer that answered the physicist's question, because the question asked had nothing to do with "Reality" "the nature of things".

So instead of answering the non-sequitur question by the learned human physicist, Answerer in effect pleads for the asker to "re-phrase the question" (i.e. ask a valid question about reality so Anwserer and reply and inform). Physicist has no valid question to ask and so lack the mentality/nature/ability/knowledge to ask a valid question for Anwserer to answer.


attofishpi wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:38 pm
On this basis, I'm sorry, but the entire story is little more than an oxymoron.

i thank you for reply, but still think you miss understanding the point of the author, the theme of his story and the nature of Anwserer.

thanks though for reply.

....................

on his little planet, neither small nor large, Answerer waits for questioners to come a ask concerning the nature of things, time neither long nor short, duration continues.

I'm not Answerer, so cannot answer "any valid question" . but he is still waiting o his planet your you to come and question him about the nature of things for him to answer you.

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Re: Selfish God

Post by attofishpi » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:47 pm

gaffo wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:58 am
attofishpi wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:38 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:20 am
thanks for taking the time to read the short story by Sheckley - i think you got some of it, but missed the bigger picture, but that ok, maybe you will re-read it later some day.
Hi Sir Gaffo, sorry but I am really really busy atm. I can't reply to your previous post breakdown.

As far as the 'bigger picture' goes, that's the part that I most definitely did not miss.

Answerer had been waiting for aeons for someone that it could explain the secrets of the universe to. It knows EVERYTHING, ergo, it knows everything about anyone that is about to ask it a question, and HOW to answer the question. It knows, that although a physicist will be limited in his\her understanding (and the question extreeeeemeeeely lacking)
i thank you for reply, but still think you miss understanding the point of the author, the theme of his story and the nature of Anwserer.

thanks though for reply.
OK, Sir Gaffo, the author left an important statement with regards to Answerer.

The only reason the story has an ounce of validity derived from its premise:- Answerer thought again of the sad limitation imposed by his builders.

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Re: Selfish God

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:56 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:11 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:29 am
How a God who is Love, fully self giving, could wish that everybody should Love him more than the amount you love others?
God’s plan(s) cannot be understood by humans. This explains the premise of the question.
If you were a theist, I would say ---- Blasphemy!!!

Gen3;22 Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;

God to a theist, not either of us, is the epitome of all attributes, including greatest teacher, and here you are saying that he created us while knowing he did not have the brains to teach us even as scriptures say he does.

Those of such little faith in god as you show should be ashamed.

Regards
DL

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