Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:44 pm

Mike Strand wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:29 pm
Dubious wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:45 pm
This is what all existence ultimately defaults to which we as conscious beings find impossible to imagine; we then replace the unimaginable with what we can imagine as provided by the living similes of sleep...a necessary biological function which in its state of rest seems a vague resemblance of death but has in fact nothing to do with it.
Dubious, thanks for your thoughts. I guess optimists who don't believe in an afterlife might look for a euphemistic description of oblivion, and "eternal rest and peace" may appeal to them, as might the "deep unconscious sleep" analogy. Some folks feel "saved" by a good night's sleep. Many other folks, however, dread the thought of oblivion, and hence the hope for a soul as an eternal personal identity.
Funny thing, isn't it? Every night we crave temporary oblivion but dread permanent oblivion.

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:06 am

Hi Mike
In a Nutshell -- If you are a Christian or person of another faith that accepts assumptions 1-4, then believing in universal salvation is A-OK! If you are a Christian with a bumper sticker that says "Jesus Saves!", go ahead and replace it with "God Saves Everybody!"
I believe in the perennial esoteric Christian tradition which is not limited to these four assumptions. The seed of the soul in those like Hitler has been corrupted and grounded serving only the process of involution further into creation. There is nothing to save. For want of a better expression, it now just serves as food.

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Belinda » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:25 am

Nick wrote:
I believe in the perennial esoteric Christian tradition which is not limited to these four assumptions. The seed of the soul in those like Hitler has been corrupted and grounded serving only the process of involution further into creation. There is nothing to save. For want of a better expression, it now just serves as food.
Is God nothing a Judge and nothing besides ?

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Mike Strand » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:24 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:49 pm
Hitler was an extraordinarily ordinary man who was a construct of his times and was given an inordinate amount of power. Give anyone that much power and they invariably go insane and start mass-murdering (rarely doing the actual killing themselves).
People need to look at themselves before pointing the finger at a convenient vessel for all the evils of humanity. He was only one person. One weak and rather pathetic little man.
Don't idolise individuals. Don't even admire them. Everyone can do something well (some people's abilities are just more showy than others).
You make a good point, vegetariantaxidermy. This reminds me of the saying, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Maybe overstated, but it's a good warning. Looking at one's self before demonizing others is sound advice, I think. What's more, ordinary folks like many of us started out admiring Hitler and apparently went along with his agenda, even after it became apparent that he had gone insane.
Greta wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:44 pm
Funny thing, isn't it? Every night we crave temporary oblivion but dread permanent oblivion.
Good observation, Greta. The experience of waking up the next morning may help lead to a belief in "waking up" after dying ... also the experience of going into and coming out of anesthesia. If a person can manage to die serenely, and there's no waking up again, that person wouldn't be around to regret it, after all. It really may be hardest for the loved ones left behind.

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Mike Strand » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:39 am

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:25 am
Nick wrote:
I believe in the perennial esoteric Christian tradition which is not limited to these four assumptions. The seed of the soul in those like Hitler has been corrupted and grounded serving only the process of involution further into creation. There is nothing to save. For want of a better expression, it now just serves as food.
Is God nothing a Judge and nothing besides ?
Thanks for your interest, Nick and Belinda!

Given the four assumptions I've posed as the foundation of Christianity, the Christian God would have the love, power, and knowledge to prevent such corruption of a soul. After all, that God is responsible for the very existence of the souls and lives of Hitler, Capone, me, you, my neighbor who lets his dog poop on my yard, and my dentist. One hopes such a God would take that responsibility seriously ... not to force anyone into heaven against their will, but to use love and probably the greatest salesmanship in the universe to change the minds of folks that we might think are going to hell.

And in the unlikely event that a person's will or soul-sickness could defeat God's will or healing power, the Christian God could be expected to put an end to that soul rather than let it suffer forever in Hades. This violates the fourth premise of every person having an identity (soul) that lasts forever, but the Christian God may not have any trouble making an exception in such a case. (A case that shouldn't occur, given the first three axioms!)

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:36 pm

Hi Mike
Given the four assumptions I've posed as the foundation of Christianity, the Christian God would have the love, power, and knowledge to prevent such corruption of a soul. After all, that God is responsible for the very existence of the souls and lives of Hitler, Capone, me, you, my neighbor who lets his dog poop on my yard, and my dentist. One hopes such a God would take that responsibility seriously ... not to force anyone into heaven against their will, but to use love and probably the greatest salesmanship in the universe to change the minds of folks that we might think are going to hell.
I don’t see these assumptions as the foundation of Christianity. I see them more as expressions of Christendom or man made interpretations of Christianity. Christianity as I understand it is a perennial traditiion concerned with the Source of creation, our source within creation, what man is, Man’s purpose within creation and the possibiity of re-birth. For example, does the Panentheistic description of God reflect the personal God of Christendom?


http://www.frimmin.com/faith/godinall.php
One of the wildest aspects of mystical Christian thought lies in the simple truth that God is everywhere. And if God is in fact everywhere, then God is in all things, and all things are in God. As mystical theologian Matthew Fox writes: "As the ocean is in the fish and the fish are in God, so God is in everything and everything is in God." Theologians call this Biblical position "panENtheism," meaning literally, "all in God." Panentheism is distinguished from pantheism, which maintains that God is all, and all is God. Panentheism is not yet in most dictionaries, but with Google listing over 8500 pages with the word, perhaps its time has come!

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:45 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:25 am
Nick wrote:
I believe in the perennial esoteric Christian tradition which is not limited to these four assumptions. The seed of the soul in those like Hitler has been corrupted and grounded serving only the process of involution further into creation. There is nothing to save. For want of a better expression, it now just serves as food.
Is God nothing a Judge and nothing besides ?
Creation is a living machine of which Man on earth is a small part? The machine is working fine. From this perspective, our value to universal purpose is expressed by what we ARE, not what we DO. The modern way is to argue about what we do or what is done. However the Christianity that I know is concerned for what we ARE. How many know the difference?

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:58 pm

I thought Hitler was getting a pineapple shoved somewhere, daily, according to 'Little Nicky'. :lol: ... On a serious note, can you imagine what it would be like to be considered the personification of evil?

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Belinda » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:39 pm

Nick wrote:
Creation is a living machine of which Man on earth is a small part? The machine is working fine. From this perspective, our value to universal purpose is expressed by what we ARE, not what we DO. The modern way is to argue about what we do or what is done. However the Christianity that I know is concerned for what we ARE. How many know the difference?
What we are doesn't exist because we live in a state of change. There is nothing in a man that does not change. A soul is a work in progress which is not finished before the individual dies.

Outwith the state of change, that's to say in the eternal now, there are no individual things or separate events. Outwith the state of change and from the point of view of eternity I am you and you are me and there is no right or wrong.

There may be an eternal order which embraces the world of changes just as the panentheists say that there is. But we don't know that and we believe it as an act of faith.

Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:58 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:39 pm
Nick wrote:
Creation is a living machine of which Man on earth is a small part? The machine is working fine. From this perspective, our value to universal purpose is expressed by what we ARE, not what we DO. The modern way is to argue about what we do or what is done. However the Christianity that I know is concerned for what we ARE. How many know the difference?
What we are doesn't exist because we live in a state of change. There is nothing in a man that does not change. A soul is a work in progress which is not finished before the individual dies.

Outwith the state of change, that's to say in the eternal now, there are no individual things or separate events. Outwith the state of change and from the point of view of eternity I am you and you are me and there is no right or wrong.

There may be an eternal order which embraces the world of changes just as the panentheists say that there is. But we don't know that and we believe it as an act of faith.
"People should not worry as much about what they do but rather about what they are. If they and their ways are good, then their deeds are radiant. If you are righteous, then what you do will also be righteous. We should not think that holiness is based on what we do but rather on what we are, for it is not our works which sanctify us but we who sanctify our works." Meister Eckhart
I agree that change is the only constant. We are part of an eternal process. Is what we are serving the complimentary cyclical universal processes of evolution or involution. Of course animal man and the physical body just serves the process of involution (dust to dust). The question becomes if the seed of the soul of man when it exists can serve the universal process of evolution and be a part of it. What we are will determine if we just serve the process of involution (unity into diversity) or become part of the process of conscious evolution (diversity into unity.)
There may be an eternal order which embraces the world of changes just as the panentheists say that there is. But we don't know that and we believe it as an act of faith.
I don't know if you are familiar with the great chain of being. That is the eternal order. The life of a dog is always changing yet its being, its "isness" remains the same. Man is unique in that its "being" can evolve from a creature of mechanical reaction into a conscious being. It is impossible for a dog.

Instead of the faith IN blind belief why not strive to experience the faith OF Christ as a human attribute? Then Simone might make sense:
"Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by seeds » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:42 am

Mike Strand wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:29 pm
The case for universal salvation hinges on the following assumptions, common among Christians:

1. A superior Being, referred to as “God”, exists and caused the existence of the universe, along with the Earth and its populations of life forms including human beings.
2. God loves every human being.
3. God has tremendous power and knowledge (for example, enough to defeat evil, save a human soul, and the like).
4. Every human being has an eternal soul - an identity that lasts forever.
Let’s take a closer look at #3 in that list, especially the underlined/bolded part:
Mike Strand wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:29 pm
3. God has tremendous power and knowledge (for example, enough to defeat evil, save a human soul, and the like).
According to Christianity, the only reason that a human soul needs saving (salvation) in the first place is based on a precept that sometime in the past (in a setting called The Garden of Eden), the so-called “fall of man” took place.

However, if we can logically presume that the phantasmagorical events that allegedly transpired in Eden...

(i.e., a talking snake, along with magical trees and a fruit-snatching caper)

...are nothing more than mythological nonsense, then the entire foundational premise upon which the need for salvation is derived can be dismissed.

In other words, if there was no literal “fall of man,” then what are we talking about here?
_______

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:29 am

Seeds
According to Christianity, the only reason that a human soul needs saving (salvation) in the first place is based on a precept that sometime in the past (in a setting called The Garden of Eden), the so-called “fall of man”took place.

However, if we can logically presume that the phantasmagorical events that allegedly transpired in Eden...

(i.e., a talking snake, along with magical trees and a fruit-snatching caper)

...are nothing more than mythological nonsense, then the entire foundational premise upon which the need for salvation is derived can be dismissed.

In other words, if there was no literal “fall of man,” then what are we talking about here?
Mythological nonsense??. If how Carl Jung describes mythology is accurate, what is the source of the collective unconscious and how does it relate to a quality of consciousness before the fall as compared to what we experience from collective Man on earth?
The collective unconscious appears to consist of mythological motifs or primordial images, for which reason the myths of all nations are its real exponents. In fact the whole of mythology could be taken as a sort of projection of the collective unconscious. We can see this most clearly if we look at the heavenly constellations, whose originally chaotic forms are organized through the projection of images. This explains the influence of the stars as asserted by astrologers. These influences are nothing but unconscious instrospective perceptions of the collective unconscious.
Carl Jung
IMO it isn’t that there was no literal fall of man but rather understanding what it means requires more than what the dualistic literal mind is capable of.

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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:46 am

Dalek Prime wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:58 pm
On a serious note, can you imagine what it would be like to be considered the personification of evil?
The moral equivalent of being sat in the corner with a Dunce cap. It's a dirty job but ...

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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:03 am

Mike Strand wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:24 am
Greta wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:44 pm
Funny thing, isn't it? Every night we crave temporary oblivion but dread permanent oblivion.
Good observation, Greta. The experience of waking up the next morning may help lead to a belief in "waking up" after dying ... also the experience of going into and coming out of anesthesia. If a person can manage to die serenely, and there's no waking up again, that person wouldn't be around to regret it, after all. It really may be hardest for the loved ones left behind.
From what I've read about NDEs it appears that the process of dying is the greater issue than death itself (which is why I am a strong supporter of euthanasia for those desperate for respite from the torture meted out by their breaking bodies). After all, about 100 billion people, and countless other animals, have died in the past and it didn't seem to do them any harm, did it? :)

NDEs usually suggest one of two things about our posthumous prospects - either blankness at all for those who don't have NDEs and some pretty amazing goings on for those who do have those outgoing experiences. A famous patient (and neuroscientist) who recovered from near-death, Eben Alexander, claimed to experience some hellish things before ending up in a far more heavenly state. However, his claims, even by NDE standards, are pretty fantastical.

There are some amazing reports from researcher, Ian Stephenson, suggestive of reincarnation in some children. In one case a child identified the murderer of the person the child had claimed to be in a previous life. He was correct on all counts, including manner of death, and enough other proof was found for a conviction.

Who knows? Reality is strange no matter which way you slice or dice it, and much of it is still unknown.

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:47 pm

Greta wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:46 am
Dalek Prime wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:58 pm
On a serious note, can you imagine what it would be like to be considered the personification of evil?
The moral equivalent of being sat in the corner with a Dunce cap. It's a dirty job but ...
But what? Don't leave me in suspense, Greta. (He says as he dons his pointy hat.)

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