What creates matter?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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chaz wyman
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by chaz wyman »

zinnat13 wrote:Hi chaz,

you asked- So when are you going to answer my questions?


May be sometime in 2012.

with love,
sanjay
I won't hold my breath
Dimebag
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by Dimebag »

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
zimmer80203` wrote:What creates matter? Is matter a product of consciousness? Does the recreation of consciousness create matter. Is matter condensed consciousness?
Big Bangs!
Or maybe not brains, but MEM-BRANES :roll:
zimmer80203`
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by zimmer80203` »

Thank you for your comments regarding "What creates matter?"

Personally, I feel or perceive the source of everything is consciousness. I say that for everyrthing has a source - something cannot come from nothing. There is the possiblity that that consciousness is the source of everything.

The problem with examining or investigating consciousness is that so little is known or understood about it. Likewise, the physical world is three-dimensional, yet science says that life is comprised of 10 to 12 dimensions.
Thus, our examination pertains to two unknowns: consciousness and how it affects the various dimensions. Likewise we don't understand how these various dimensions interact with each other.

At best, the answer to my question would be subjective as opposed to objective. Therefore, cannot be proved.

David
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Dimebag wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
zimmer80203` wrote:What creates matter? Is matter a product of consciousness? Does the recreation of consciousness create matter. Is matter condensed consciousness?
Big Bangs!
Or maybe not brains, but MEM-BRANES :roll:
I would say it's more like a nicklebag, but only because there's no such thing as a pennybag, of course in this case I'm sure we could make an exception.
zimmer80203`
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by zimmer80203` »

Most of the posts regarding my question seem to pertain to the Big Bang.

Consequently, I can only wonder, what created the Big Bang? Was it caused by consciousness realizing it's existence or something else. Could the Big Bang have been a part of life's evolutionary process? To understand this, we have to consider the law of "Cause and Effect". In other words, talking about the Big Bang is pointless if one doesn't know what produced it. Likewise, if we understood what caused the Big Bang, wouldn't we also know how matter is created?

David
chaz wyman
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by chaz wyman »

zimmer80203` wrote:Most of the posts regarding my question seem to pertain to the Big Bang.

Consequently, I can only wonder, what created the Big Bang? Was it caused by consciousness realizing it's existence or something else. Could the Big Bang have been a part of life's evolutionary process? To understand this, we have to consider the law of "Cause and Effect". In other words, talking about the Big Bang is pointless if one doesn't know what produced it. Likewise, if we understood what caused the Big Bang, wouldn't we also know how matter is created?

David

First thing you have to realise is that the BB is a model. A model that precludes the existence of anything before it- or at least knowledge of anything before.
We have no direct knowledge of that time - all is speculation.
The second thing you have to realise it that your speculation is ridiculous. There is no parallel, analogue, or example in the universe, thus far, where a 'consciousness' of any kind has created anything. In fact if you had not been exposed to thousands of years of primitive superstition you would not even be asking that question.
You also must realise that Life did not emerge until a minute to midnight on the cosmic scale and thus the BB can have played no part in it. Your question has to be based on a very flakey understanding of what evolution is conceived to be; it relies on survival and death - matter does not live and die.
zimmer80203`
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by zimmer80203` »

First thing you have to realise is that the BB is a model. A model that precludes the existence of anything before it- or at least knowledge of anything before.
We have no direct knowledge of that time - all is speculation.
The second thing you have to realise it that your speculation is ridiculous. There is no parallel, analogue, or example in the universe, thus far, where a 'consciousness' of any kind has created anything. In fact if you had not been exposed to thousands of years of primitive superstition you would not even be asking that question.
You also must realise that Life did not emerge until a minute to midnight on the cosmic scale and thus the BB can have played no part in it. Your question has to be based on a very flakey understanding of what evolution is conceived to be; it relies on survival and death - matter does not live and die.
I am sorry, but your argument doesn't make sense to me. Something cannot come from nothing. Something caused the BB.

Personally, I view consciousness being life. It has always existed and will continue to exist. Consciousness is also energy, as such cannot be destroyed. Therefore if it is energy, it has always existed and will continue to always exist.

David
Thundril
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by Thundril »

zinnat13 wrote: People like Hawkins tends to make a joke of spirituality and even philosophy too. I have read his book 'the history of time'. He very categorically stated that there is absolutely no need to look beyond the BB as it is useless and impossible too.

Science wants each and every notion to be proved physically and i am total agreement with this principle. Thus, it surprises me when a noble prize winner scientist like Hawkins says that we can assume without any problem that that singularity existed there before BB.

with love,
sanjay
Hi Sanjay. I too have read the "Brief History of Time'. (A long time ago, admittedly.) I read it several times, and each time I thought I grasped a bit more of exactly what Professor Hawking was saying. He is a very clear writer, but I'm not a quick enough learner, I think!
You, however, appear to have understood Hawking even less than I did on first reading., Where does he say anything remotely like "We can assume without any problem that the singularity existed there before the BB"?
IIRC, he said in that book that his current view of the Universe's time/space was that it resembled a sphere, inasmuch as the 'beginning' and 'end' were rather like the Earth's north and south poles: you could travel straight across one of them without realising it, but you would then be going in the opposite direction. (ie backwards in time)
Therefore he suggested (again I'm sketching from an increasingly doddery memory) that since time and space are created together at the big bang, there is no space 'outside' the universe, and no time 'before' it. That means, he said, that not only is there no place for a creator to be in before the Big Bang, but no time in which to do the creating! (this would apply equally, whether we suppose the 'creator' to be a self-conscious entity like a God or simply the singularity itself).
Many others have disagreed with him on this, and I daresay his own view will have developed considerably in the intervening decades since he published the Brief History.
But it really will not do (for either you or me ) to misattribute dodgy arguments to one of the finest scientific minds of our time. Suggest you read him again, more carefully.
With respect. All best, Jax
Thundril
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by Thundril »

zimmer80203` wrote:
I am sorry, but your argument doesn't make sense to me. Something cannot come from nothing. Something caused the BB.

David
Well, there's your problem, David. you have stated it more clearly than anyone else could have:
"Something cannot come from nothing"
and
"Something caused the BB".
For how long have you believed these two statements without realising the absurdity of their conjunction?
Where did the 'Something' that 'created the Universe' come from?
chaz wyman
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by chaz wyman »

zimmer80203` wrote:
First thing you have to realise is that the BB is a model. A model that precludes the existence of anything before it- or at least knowledge of anything before.
We have no direct knowledge of that time - all is speculation.
The second thing you have to realise it that your speculation is ridiculous. There is no parallel, analogue, or example in the universe, thus far, where a 'consciousness' of any kind has created anything. In fact if you had not been exposed to thousands of years of primitive superstition you would not even be asking that question.
You also must realise that Life did not emerge until a minute to midnight on the cosmic scale and thus the BB can have played no part in it. Your question has to be based on a very flakey understanding of what evolution is conceived to be; it relies on survival and death - matter does not live and die.
I am sorry, but your argument doesn't make sense to me. Something cannot come from nothing. Something caused the BB.

Personally, I view consciousness being life. It has always existed and will continue to exist. Consciousness is also energy, as such cannot be destroyed. Therefore if it is energy, it has always existed and will continue to always exist.

David
1) All the evidence. And I mean ALL of it demonstrates that consciousness came FROM matter. There is nothing by way of evidence, theory, speculation that goes one inch towards your laughable view that matter came from consciousness. Nothing.
2) The notion that something cannot come from nothing is interesting, because it is exactly what you are suggesting.
3) But even if you were to accept this idiosyncratic idea that matter comes from consciousness then you still have ALL your work still to do. You would have to account for the origin of consciousness.
4) There is NO energy without matter.
5) There is no consciousness without matter to generate it.

You can believe what you like, but you have no ground upon which to assert your wild claims.
zimmer80203`
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by zimmer80203` »

1) All the evidence. And I mean ALL of it demonstrates that consciousness came FROM matter. There is nothing by way of evidence, theory, speculation that goes one inch towards your laughable view that matter came from consciousness. Nothing.
2) The notion that something cannot come from nothing is interesting, because it is exactly what you are suggesting.
3) But even if you were to accept this idiosyncratic idea that matter comes from consciousness then you still have ALL your work still to do. You would have to account for the origin of consciousness.
4) There is NO energy without matter.
5) There is no consciousness without matter to generate it.
Science and objective philosophy requires "proof" where as subjective philosophy does not. Language has it's limitations. It can describe and help us comprehend the physical and non-physical. Unfortunately, what "is" is neither physical nor non-physical; for lack of a better word, it is "naught". I do not mean nothing or zero. It is something, but indescribable. Naught has no limitations and cannot be contained in a word or image. It is also constantly changing and evolving.

Fortunately, "naught" can be experienced, but it is impossible to describe that experience.

Everything in Nature desires to recreate itself. Thus, it's possible that that the product of "naught" recreating itself caused the big bang which in turn produced the non-physical world, which in turn produced the physical world.

Naught is energy and science has proved that energy cannot be destroyed. Thus naught has always existed and will always exist. Naught also has intelligence.

The idea that matter created consciousness is a product of thought, not intelligence. Unlike thought, consciousness has no limitations. On the other hand thought is fragmented and incomplete.

David
chaz wyman
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by chaz wyman »

zimmer80203` wrote:
1) All the evidence. And I mean ALL of it demonstrates that consciousness came FROM matter. There is nothing by way of evidence, theory, speculation that goes one inch towards your laughable view that matter came from consciousness. Nothing.
2) The notion that something cannot come from nothing is interesting, because it is exactly what you are suggesting.
3) But even if you were to accept this idiosyncratic idea that matter comes from consciousness then you still have ALL your work still to do. You would have to account for the origin of consciousness.
4) There is NO energy without matter.
5) There is no consciousness without matter to generate it.
Science and objective philosophy requires "proof" where as subjective philosophy does not. .

This is crackpot. All you are saying is that you can imagine what you want and not have to prove it; ridiculous.


Language has it's limitations. It can describe and help us comprehend the physical and non-physical.

~True, but that does not help you here.


Unfortunately, what "is" is neither physical nor non-physical; for lack of a better word, it is "naught". I do not mean nothing or zero. It is something, but indescribable. Naught has no limitations and cannot be contained in a word or image. It is also constantly changing and evolving.

You are not supporting your case.

Fortunately, "naught" can be experienced, but it is impossible to describe that experience.

NO. Naught cannot be experienced. Naught can only be understood as an idea, life all maths.

Everything in Nature desires to recreate itself.

No - most of nature has no desire at all.

Thus, it's possible that that the product of "naught" recreating itself caused the big bang which in turn produced the non-physical world, which in turn produced the physical world.

Gibberish.


Naught is energy and science has proved that energy cannot be destroyed. Thus naught has always existed and will always exist. Naught also has intelligence.

No, naught it the idea of nothing. It is no matter no energy and no importance.
Nothing you are saying is helping your case.

The idea that matter created consciousness is a product of thought, not intelligence. Unlike thought, consciousness has no limitations. On the other hand thought is fragmented and incomplete.

It is a product of your imagination, just like Gandalf, Star Wars and the Tooth fairy. None of which can help us understand the universe.


David
When are you going to attend to the question?

Here's an idea. A Big Purple Frog with the head of a Lion created the earth, with matter from its thought process.
Prove me wrong!
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attofishpi
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by attofishpi »

Something from nothing?

Couldnt something and nothing exist side by side. Like chaos is the opposite universe to ours, in this one we are able to actually perceive.

Thundril linked the below in another thread which i found fascinating and perhaps may shed some light...(on a shed with power)

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang ... he_phi.php
zimmer80203`
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by zimmer80203` »

Everything in Nature desires to recreate itself.

No - most of nature has no desire at all.

Thus, it's possible that that the product of "naught" recreating itself caused the big bang which in turn produced the non-physical world, which in turn produced the physical world.

Gibberish.
I should have said "reproduce itself" as opposed to recreating itself. The drive to reproduce is a powerful force. To say that insects, plants and animals don't want to reproduce is stupid. Surely consciousness might want to reproduce itself as well. Who knows, the source of the desire to reproduce might be consciousness. Can evolution occur with out reproduction?

As humans we are exposed to 3 dimensions, yet science says life has 10 to 12 dimensions. Thus humans have little exposure to all of life, but that doesn't stop them from "thinking" they understand life.

Question: Is gravity matter? Is electricity matter? It is impossible to physically see gravity. Yes, you can observe the effect of it, but you cannot physically see it. The same applies to electricity. We are able to see the effect of numerous things that we do not know what causes them and don't understand.

I do not expect you to think, see or understand what I do or be like me. But you might want to seriously consider being open to the possibility that some things are different than you think, see and understand.

David
zinnat13
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Re: What creates matter?

Post by zinnat13 »

HI jax,

I am sorry for being late in reply due to illness of my father.

I will try to reply in a day or two.

with love,
sanjay
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