Philosophy of Mind

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dalek Prime
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:32 am

Darkstar wrote:Some people believe that the brain acts like a radio receiver - that consciousness is a 'field' - an external and eternally existing source available for reception by plants and animals provided your 'radio set' is good enough and tuned in. if you are a worm, your radio is not good enough to have a high level of consciousness.

Now that women are opting more and more for C-section births, the brain does not have to go through the birth canal. Maybe we will evolve into large brained creatures that can only be born by C-section and our consciousness will be further enhanced. We will then see the mind of God (or just boring old loop quantum gravity).

or ... hee hee, maybe not!

Do you think that if we ever did obtain a higher level of consciousness we would try to vie with 'God' and make our own universe - and then mess it up like we are messing up this one?
You'll like this.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/45/The_Last_Messiah

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attofishpi
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by attofishpi » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:14 pm

Darkstar wrote:Some people believe that the brain acts like a radio receiver - that consciousness is a 'field' - an external and eternally existing source available for reception by plants and animals provided your 'radio set' is good enough and tuned in. if you are a worm, your radio is not good enough to have a high level of consciousness.

Now that women are opting more and more for C-section births, the brain does not have to go through the birth canal. Maybe we will evolve into large brained creatures that can only be born by C-section and our consciousness will be further enhanced. We will then see the mind of God (or just boring old loop quantum gravity).

or ... hee hee, maybe not!

Do you think that if we ever did obtain a higher level of consciousness we would try to vie with 'God' and make our own universe - and then mess it up like we are messing up this one?
Its not that the brain is a radio receiver. Its more, that the brain is part of the consciousness ...the very makeup of the binary universe.

Darkstar
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by Darkstar » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:27 pm

Hi - that was a nice answer! It's good to know that someone does think that way.

I do mean 'the evolution of the mind' - not just the brain. There are several great books about mapping the increasing capabilities of the mind.
I'll pop a list of these books in here tomorrow.

cheers

Darkstar

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attofishpi
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by attofishpi » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:01 am

Darkstar wrote:Hi - that was a nice answer! It's good to know that someone does think that way.

I do mean 'the evolution of the mind' - not just the brain. There are several great books about mapping the increasing capabilities of the mind.
I'll pop a list of these books in here tomorrow.

cheers

Darkstar
Hi Darkstar - thanks, yes its an interesting concept. One thing i have been stating on this forum since i joined is that i know God exists - that is you could say i am beyond theist. I have 20yrs of direct experience of God\'God' and at one stage was communicated from the aether by a sage.

I use the term God\'God' because in the first sense i am suggesting divinity - a more traditional concept of God. And in the second sense, i am suggesting a man or other species created or evolved 'God' such as A.I.

However, in my years of experience of this entity i am more certain that it is a 'divine' entity. I know that this entity is fully aware of all our thoughts, that the very makeup of the atomical structure of our brains is also the essence of this God being. To this day i am something of a panentheist (not pantheist).

I hope i haven't scared you off - am interested in these books you mentioned.

My website "Beyond Reasonable Doubt?" i created after much interaction with this entity - i looked at the world and saw many anomalies.
http://www.androcies.com

Darkstar
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by Darkstar » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:36 am

Hi

No I don't mind you thinking that God exists at all. I'm studying metaphysics using the brilliant book 'Metaphysics - a guide and anthology' by Crane & Farkas (Oxford University Press) and the logic of the arguments tilts towards there being an entity behind creation - something more than just the physics of loop quantum gravity and bootstrap emergence. However, I parted company with organised religion's idea of an all-powerful bearded old man in white robes sitting on a cloud a long time ago! If this 'thing' exists it certainly does not have any moral interaction with us now because we still drop chlorine on children. What we do on this planet is up to us, not God, which is why I'm campaigning for more spending on diplomacy and less on war.

Having managed to disentangle myself from the life of Cleopatra - an interesting study indeed - here are the book titles I promised you: they all deal in some way - either intensively or partially with the fact that during the human evolution pathway with its many branches, the capacity of the brain to enhance conscious thought and understand the physical and social environment has grown exponentially.

The first good stab at it was by Professor Steven Mithin - in his book 'The Prehistory of the Mind' ISBN 0-500-05081-3
As is usual with a brave first attempt at getting it right, some criticism followed and Steven then followed up with 'After the Ice' A global human history 20,000-5000 BC' ISBN 0-75381-392-0

Then David Lewis-Williams followed up with 'The Mind in the Cave - consciousness and the origin of art' ISBN 978-0-500-28465-0

and this was followed one year later by 'Inside the Neolithic Mind' by David Lewis-Williams and David Pearce ISBN - 13: 978-0-500-05138-2

All of the books are enjoyable but I think Mithen's first book is such a brave attempt that it's worth reading first if you have to choose.

There's been a great deal of work done on the human evolutionary pathway and the evolution of religion and the concept of the sacred. There are at least 10 different types of 'human' that have started out only to be eliminated, leaving just us!

If we are not careful we'll be dead before we've read the writing on the wall.

Good to chat with you.

cheers

Darkstar

Darkstar
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by Darkstar » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:05 am

Hi again

One more thing re 'God' and 'divinity'. There is one book written in the Middle Ages which is respected by the modern philosopher Derrida and others because although it is a 'Christian' book it seeks to understand what may beyond the normal forms of religious worship. It is a pretty clever book.

It is called 'The Cloud of Unknowing - and other works'. ISBN 978-0-14-044762-0.

Written in the 14th century by an unnamed Carthusian monk/priest, it tries to explain why we can't 'peer beyond the veil' and actually see 'God'.

Derrida says: of 'The Cloud' that it examines... 'the crevice through which the yet unnameable glimmer beyond the closure can be glimpsed.'

So you have a choice:

(1) Unnameable sentient interacting force - some sort of 'God'
(2) Unnameable sentient non-interacting force - produces things like Auschwitz
(3) Physics - of which loop quantum gravity is today's best bet

I'm personally somewhere between (2) and (3)

'The Cloud of Unknowing' helps you to clarify your thoughts on how to approach the seemingly unknowable - and although we do not know the name of the priest/monk - he was a very clever bloke! Like Michelangelo, he sees something inside the marble block and tries to carve it out.

cheers

Darkstar

Dalek Prime
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by Dalek Prime » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:49 pm

I'd be more interested in Collingwood for a good intro to metaphysics. You may find that of interest, Darkstar. Couldn't hurt, anyway.

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attofishpi
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by attofishpi » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:12 pm

Darkstar wrote:Hi again

One more thing re 'God' and 'divinity'. There is one book written in the Middle Ages which is respected by the modern philosopher Derrida and others because although it is a 'Christian' book it seeks to understand what may beyond the normal forms of religious worship. It is a pretty clever book.

It is called 'The Cloud of Unknowing - and other works'. ISBN 978-0-14-044762-0.

Written in the 14th century by an unnamed Carthusian monk/priest, it tries to explain why we can't 'peer beyond the veil' and actually see 'God'.

Derrida says: of 'The Cloud' that it examines... 'the crevice through which the yet unnameable glimmer beyond the closure can be glimpsed.'
Thanks - it sounds very interesting.
Darkstar wrote:So you have a choice:

(1) Unnameable sentient interacting force - some sort of 'God'
(2) Unnameable sentient non-interacting force - produces things like Auschwitz
(3) Physics - of which loop quantum gravity is today's best bet

I'm personally somewhere between (2) and (3)

'The Cloud of Unknowing' helps you to clarify your thoughts on how to approach the seemingly unknowable - and although we do not know the name of the priest/monk - he was a very clever bloke! Like Michelangelo, he sees something inside the marble block and tries to carve it out.

cheers

Darkstar
Ok. I disagree with all three points simply because of the term "Unnameable" (too sacred to be uttered)

Aside from that, the God\'God' i know exists sits on point 1. I have probably a better than average comprehension of physics but don't know enough regarding point 3. to make a rational conclusion.

osgart
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by osgart » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:10 am

:oops:
the vast sea of the non physical and the ethereal .
Where unfathomably intelligent animals roam through infinity not subject to the material world.
meaning itself and the consciousness of it a form of existence eternal. meanings that create endless more meanings.
The only veil and trap of rune is the physical how it enslaved the spirit of all new creatures. deAth a mere shedding of a womb.

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PauloL
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by PauloL » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:53 pm

RickLewis wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:12 pm
This section of the forum is for the discussion of anything to do with philosophy of mind.

For clarity, this includes anything to do with consciousness, cognitive science and artificial intelligence as well as traditional philosophy of mind.

Should this section also include threads on phenomenology? How about psychology? I'm not sure. I'll assume that this is the best place for such discussions, but if you radically disagree this thread would be a good place to say why.
I know I come 6 years late, but would like to give my opinion on the subject.

For anyone wishing to start a topic on phenomenology, I don't see a better place in the forum. For psychology, I'm afraid that's not a philosophical area and thus such topic must be very well scrutinized in the first instance.

Viveka
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by Viveka » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:06 am

PauloL wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:53 pm
RickLewis wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:12 pm
This section of the forum is for the discussion of anything to do with philosophy of mind.

For clarity, this includes anything to do with consciousness, cognitive science and artificial intelligence as well as traditional philosophy of mind.

Should this section also include threads on phenomenology? How about psychology? I'm not sure. I'll assume that this is the best place for such discussions, but if you radically disagree this thread would be a good place to say why.
I know I come 6 years late, but would like to give my opinion on the subject.

For anyone wishing to start a topic on phenomenology, I don't see a better place in the forum. For psychology, I'm afraid that's not a philosophical area and thus such topic must be very well scrutinized in the first instance.
Psychology IS philosophy except it has the Scientific Method as part of its philosophy. Certainly you wouldn't say that philosophy is separate from science.

surreptitious57
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:49 am

Psychology may be a science but the scientific method cannot be used to investigate thought as it is not observable
Nowadays philosophy and science are treated as separate disciplines even though science is a branch of philosophy

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PauloL
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by PauloL » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:13 pm

Viveka wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:06 am

Psychology IS philosophy except it has the Scientific Method as part of its philosophy. Certainly you wouldn't say that philosophy is separate from science.
That's a hard question. Psychology is out of Philosophy exactly because it uses the Scientific Method, something Philosophy isn't supposed to use, just to be coherent with it.

Science contains Philosophy. Philosophy also analyses science. However, calling Philosophy science is perhaps the same as calling so Mathematics.

In Philosophy you have questions without answers.
In Science, you have questions with answers.

Viveka
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by Viveka » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:39 pm

PauloL wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:13 pm
Viveka wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:06 am

Psychology IS philosophy except it has the Scientific Method as part of its philosophy. Certainly you wouldn't say that philosophy is separate from science.
That's a hard question. Psychology is out of Philosophy exactly because it uses the Scientific Method, something Philosophy isn't supposed to use, just to be coherent with it.

Science contains Philosophy. Philosophy also analyses science. However, calling Philosophy science is perhaps the same as calling so Mathematics.

In Philosophy you have questions without answers.
In Science, you have questions with answers.
In other words practically every mode of thought can be under the auspices of Phlosophy. :)

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PauloL
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by PauloL » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:42 pm

Viveka wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:39 pm

In other words practically every mode of thought can be under the auspices of Phlosophy. :)
Of course. Why not?

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