Philosophy of Mind

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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uwot
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by uwot »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:25 pmSo, at what speed does motion become impossible?
I'm not sure what motion you are asking about. If by motion you mean something like 'time passing' or on a personal level 'ageing', then it only stops at c. Einstein used the idea of a light clock to illustrate the point I made about two atoms exchanging photons. Clocks are simply mechanical devices that count periodic events - pendulums swinging, quartz tuning forks vibrating, caesium atoms absorbing and emitting photons for example. Einstein's light clock is two parallel mirrors between which a pulse of light bounces up and down. If that light clock is stationary, the light can take the shortest route and the clock ticks at some 'absolute' time (which for practical purposes is meaningless). However, if the pair of mirrors (light clock) is moving sideways, then the pulse of light has to move diagonally to bounce between the mirrors. Compared to a clock that is not moving, the light in the moving clock has to travel further; which takes longer, hence the moving clock is ticking slower. But it's not just the clock, it is every interaction in any object that is moving with the light clock - everything co-moving in the same inertial frame. If that's the sort of thing you had in mind, then "motion" only becomes impossible at the speed of light, because if the light clock is travelling as fast as the pulse of light, then everything is travelling in parallel lines, and the pulse of light will never pass from one mirror to the other. As far as that clock is concerned, time has stopped.
Last edited by uwot on Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dubious
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by Dubious »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:18 pm
Dubious wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:40 am
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:46 am Just for the record, if your life is miserable, it's your own damn fault.
...just for the record, sometimes I'm miserable and sometimes I'm not. Only idiots are happy all the time.
Life is tough and to live successfully requires continous effort (work and learning) and enduring discomfort, disappointment, and overcoming endless difficulties, which is what living is. If you expect everything to be easy and nice and never having to experience any pain or disappointment you will probably be miserable. For those who know the value of life, and that nothing of real value comes easy or without great cost, the challenges of life are just part of the great adventure that achieving and being all one can costs and are only incidentals in one's overall enjoyment of a fufilled life worth living. Knowing that is the life one is living is being happy all the time, even during the hardest times.

If you are incapable of enjoying all of life, even the hardest parts of it, then be miserable and give up. You don't have to be miserable and I hope you aren't, but you have to choose.
Thanks for all the cliches! They were really comforting!
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RCSaunders
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by RCSaunders »

Dubious wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:37 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:18 pm
Dubious wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:40 am

...just for the record, sometimes I'm miserable and sometimes I'm not. Only idiots are happy all the time.
Life is tough and to live successfully requires continous effort (work and learning) and enduring discomfort, disappointment, and overcoming endless difficulties, which is what living is. If you expect everything to be easy and nice and never having to experience any pain or disappointment you will probably be miserable. For those who know the value of life, and that nothing of real value comes easy or without great cost, the challenges of life are just part of the great adventure that achieving and being all one can costs and are only incidentals in one's overall enjoyment of a fufilled life worth living. Knowing that is the life one is living is being happy all the time, even during the hardest times.

If you are incapable of enjoying all of life, even the hardest parts of it, then be miserable and give up. You don't have to be miserable and I hope you aren't, but you have to choose.
Thanks for all the cliches! They were really comforting!
You're welcome. I hope they are comforting. I had no other intention.

Seriously, I'd like to know where you have read or heard any of the things I just wrote before. I'm usually accused of just the opposite. Most people accuse me of saying things no one else says or believes, so your comment is a pleasant surprise.
Dubious
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by Dubious »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:38 am
Dubious wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:37 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:18 pm
Life is tough and to live successfully requires continous effort (work and learning) and enduring discomfort, disappointment, and overcoming endless difficulties, which is what living is. If you expect everything to be easy and nice and never having to experience any pain or disappointment you will probably be miserable. For those who know the value of life, and that nothing of real value comes easy or without great cost, the challenges of life are just part of the great adventure that achieving and being all one can costs and are only incidentals in one's overall enjoyment of a fufilled life worth living. Knowing that is the life one is living is being happy all the time, even during the hardest times.

If you are incapable of enjoying all of life, even the hardest parts of it, then be miserable and give up. You don't have to be miserable and I hope you aren't, but you have to choose.
Thanks for all the cliches! They were really comforting!
You're welcome. I hope they are comforting. I had no other intention.

Seriously, I'd like to know where you have read or heard any of the things I just wrote before. I'm usually accused of just the opposite. Most people accuse me of saying things no one else says or believes, so your comment is a pleasant surprise.
I was already aware of much of it in my teens having been so informed but yours was a good review some decades later.
surreptitious57
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by surreptitious57 »

RCSaunders wrote:
Seriously I would like to know where you have read or heard any of the things I just wrote before
Most people accuse me of saying things no one else says or believes so your comment is a pleasant surprise
These people must live very sheltered lives then because most of what I have seen you write here is basic philosophical truth
I dont agree with absolutely everything you say but the majority of its so obvious it should not be questioned by anyone at all
Just out of curiosity have you ever asked those who think you say things no one else says or believes just why they think this ?
Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by Skepdick »

uwot wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:56 pm
Skepdick wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:50 am What is the speed of light relative to?
Anything you like. The point of special relativity is not that the speed of light is constant, it is that regardless of your inertial frame, you will measure the speed of light in a vacuum as c. But then, wherever there are agents with the means to measure, there is no absolute vacuum. Again, it's yer epistemology, not ontology.
Anything I like? Neat! I like causality.

c isn't really about the speed of light, but about the "speed" of causality. Which is why the number appears not only in Einstein, but in Maxwell's equations too - it applies to electromagnetism, as well as light. It's the speed of information.

It's because you have an upper bound on causality is why observers in different inertial frames can still agree on the ordering of events.
If A causes B, then there is no inertial frame in which B happens before A. Except for that weirdness about delayed choice quantum erasers.

It's not so much as my epistemology vs my ontology - it's my epistemologies clashing. It's the small-scale vs the large-scale epistemology.
surreptitious57
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by surreptitious57 »

Saying it applies to electromagnetism as well as light suggests they are separate phenomena when they are actually the same
I know that you mean the electromagnetic spectrum that is not visible light but the way that you worded it is rather ambiguous
Gary Childress
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by Gary Childress »

surreptitious57 wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:57 am
RCSaunders wrote:
Seriously I would like to know where you have read or heard any of the things I just wrote before
Most people accuse me of saying things no one else says or believes so your comment is a pleasant surprise
These people must live very sheltered lives then because most of what I have seen you write here is basic philosophical truth
I dont agree with absolutely everything you say but the majority of its so obvious it should not be questioned by anyone at all
Just out of curiosity have you ever asked those who think you say things no one else says or believes just why they think this ?
You should check out some of his posts in the Ethical Theory, forum. You might change your mind that he writes "basic philosophical truth". More like poorly worded, unqualified, broad sweeping generalizations which he then refuses to acknowledge valid objections to. :roll:
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RCSaunders
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by RCSaunders »

surreptitious57 wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:57 am
RCSaunders wrote:
Seriously I would like to know where you have read or heard any of the things I just wrote before
Most people accuse me of saying things no one else says or believes so your comment is a pleasant surprise
These people must live very sheltered lives then because most of what I have seen you write here is basic philosophical truth
I dont agree with absolutely everything you say but the majority of its so obvious it should not be questioned by anyone at all
Just out of curiosity have you ever asked those who think you say things no one else says or believes just why they think this ?
That hasn't been necessary, since I'm also informed why in most cases. [See Gary Childress' previous post, which also typical of the argumensts.]

I know why most of them disagree with my views. (You see their arguments on almost every thread I participate in on this site.) If you are asking what some of those arguments are, I could explain but won''t accost you with what you have not specifically asked for.

I'm sure you've had similar experiences.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by RCSaunders »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:10 pm
surreptitious57 wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:57 am
RCSaunders wrote:
Seriously I would like to know where you have read or heard any of the things I just wrote before
Most people accuse me of saying things no one else says or believes so your comment is a pleasant surprise
These people must live very sheltered lives then because most of what I have seen you write here is basic philosophical truth
I dont agree with absolutely everything you say but the majority of its so obvious it should not be questioned by anyone at all
Just out of curiosity have you ever asked those who think you say things no one else says or believes just why they think this ?
You should check out some of his posts in the Ethical Theory, forum. You might change your mind that he writes "basic philosophical truth". More like poorly worded, unqualified, broad sweeping generalizations which he then refuses to acknowledge valid objections to. :roll:
Thanks, Gary.
Gary Childress
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by Gary Childress »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:03 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:10 pm
surreptitious57 wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:57 am

These people must live very sheltered lives then because most of what I have seen you write here is basic philosophical truth
I dont agree with absolutely everything you say but the majority of its so obvious it should not be questioned by anyone at all
Just out of curiosity have you ever asked those who think you say things no one else says or believes just why they think this ?
You should check out some of his posts in the Ethical Theory, forum. You might change your mind that he writes "basic philosophical truth". More like poorly worded, unqualified, broad sweeping generalizations which he then refuses to acknowledge valid objections to. :roll:
Thanks, Gary.
I'm sorry, RC. I suppose that's not all true. However, I just can't seem to get anyone to recognize any points I make in this forum regarding contentious subjects. I concede when others have good points against my arguments and I think I've had some valid points here and there too. But apparently I don't make any valid points. So I'm done arguing. It seems I'm just an idiot.
jayjacobus
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by jayjacobus »

Trying to make valid points should be the goal of each poster. Being a smart ass fails to impress me.

I am on your side. Ignore the smart asses (or eviscerate them).
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RCSaunders
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by RCSaunders »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:22 am
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:03 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:10 pm

You should check out some of his posts in the Ethical Theory, forum. You might change your mind that he writes "basic philosophical truth". More like poorly worded, unqualified, broad sweeping generalizations which he then refuses to acknowledge valid objections to. :roll:
Thanks, Gary.
I'm sorry, RC. I suppose that's not all true. However, I just can't seem to get anyone to recognize any points I make in this forum regarding contentious subjects. I concede when others have good points against my arguments and I think I've had some valid points here and there too. But apparently I don't make any valid points. So I'm done arguing. It seems I'm just an idiot.
No need to be sorry. I fully understand how frustrating it can be when no one seems to get what you are saying. Though it doesn't bother me, almost no one seems to get what I'm saying. If you know you're right, Gary, you don't need anyone else's agreement or approval. Of course you would like others to understand and agree, but what really matters is that you are sure in your own mind that what you think and believe is right.

When I express my views, I never expect agreement or approval, and am not trying to change anyone else's mind (which can almost never be done anyway). When I ask questions, it is not so much to cast doubt on what someone else believes, but for me to discover how others come to the conclusions they do. I like the interchange and testing of ideas, because they either strengthen my own views or provide me an opportunity to learn something new.

And you never ever have to apologize to anyone else for what you honestly think. If they are offended, it's their problem.
surreptitious57
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by surreptitious57 »

Gary Childress wrote:
I just cant seem to get anyone to recognize any points I make in this forum regarding contentious subjects
I concede when others have good points against my arguments and I think I have had some valid points here and there too
But apparently I dont make any valid points
You cannot make anyone agree with you as that is beyond your control
But what you can do is make the best arguments possible as it is all that really matters
Because the arguments themselves are not actually dependent on how popular they are
surreptitious57
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Re: Philosophy of Mind

Post by surreptitious57 »

RCSaunders wrote:
Of course you would like others to understand and agree
Understand yes but not agree

No one has a monopoly on wisdom so accepting you are sometimes wrong is how one develops
For you grow not only intellectually but psychologically too by accepting your own limitations
And so this is the reason why I try not to hold onto positions any more than I actually have to
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