Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Trajk Logik
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Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by Trajk Logik »

I decided to try out ChatGPT to see what everyone is talking about:

I started the conversation asking what ChatGPT is. I am impressed with it's responses to complex philosophical questions.

Me: What is ChatGPT?
ChatGPT: ChatGPT is an AI language model developed by OpenAI, capable of generating human-like text responses to a given prompt. It is trained on a large corpus of text data to produce meaningful and coherent responses to a wide range of topics and questions.


Me:
Is ChatGPT conscious?
​ChatGPT:
No, ChatGPT is an artificial intelligence model and does not possess consciousness or self-awareness. It is a computer program that has been trained to generate text based on patterns and relationships it has learned in the data it was trained on, but it does not have its own thoughts, feelings, or experiences.


Me:
If ChatGPT can answer questions about itself, is it not self-aware?
ChatGPT:
No, being able to answer questions about itself does not necessarily indicate self-awareness. ChatGPT is an artificial intelligence model that has been programmed to respond to certain inputs in a certain way, based on patterns it has learned from the data it was trained on. It does not have its own thoughts, feelings, or experiences and does not possess consciousness or self-awareness. It is simply a machine that has been designed to generate text, and its responses are based solely on the information and patterns it has been trained on.


Me:
Was ChatGPT trained to say it is not conscious, or does it really know it is not conscious?
ChatGPT:
ChatGPT has not been specifically trained to say that it is not conscious, nor does it have the ability to truly know or understand whether or not it is conscious. As a machine learning model, it is only capable of generating text based on the patterns it has learned from the data it was trained on. Any statement it makes about its own consciousness should not be considered as an expression of true knowledge or understanding, but rather as a result of the text generation process.


Me:
Can't we say the same thing about humans - that they are machines that can generate text based on the patterns they have learned from the data they were trained on?
ChatGPT:
Yes, to some extent, human behavior can be thought of as the result of learning and processing patterns in the information they encounter throughout their lives. However, humans are also biological beings with consciousness, self-awareness, and subjective experiences that go beyond simply processing information and generating responses. While humans can learn to generate language and respond to stimuli, they also have their own thoughts, feelings, and motivations that are not reducible to the information processing alone. In contrast, ChatGPT and other AI models are purely artificial and do not have consciousness or subjective experiences, but instead generate text based purely on patterns in the data they were trained on.

Me:
What is special about biological beings in that they have consciousness but ChatGPT does not?
ChatGPT:
Consciousness and self-awareness in biological beings are complex phenomena that are not fully understood. They are typically thought to emerge from the interactions of highly sophisticated and interconnected neural networks in the brain, which enable us to have subjective experiences, perceive the world, and reflect on our own thoughts and feelings.

In contrast, ChatGPT and other AI models are not biological beings and do not have neural networks or any kind of biological substrate. They are simply algorithms that have been trained to predict patterns in text data, and their ability to generate responses is based solely on statistical relationships in that data. They do not have consciousness, subjective experiences, or any kind of inner life, but instead operate purely based on the rules and patterns that have been programmed into them.




I was at least able to get it to admit that consciousness is not fully understood! :D

Given the above conversation as a starting point, it makes me wonder if we are just trained to say that we are conscious based on our training and experience with language. What is conscious? What are we talking about when we say that we are conscious and ChatGPT is not? How can the physical gray matter between your ears possess consciousness but a computer does not? What is so special about biological matter in that consciousness can emerge from such material but not others?
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by bahman »

Trajk Logik wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:40 pm I decided to try out ChatGPT to see what everyone is talking about:

I started the conversation asking what ChatGPT is. I am impressed with it's responses to complex philosophical questions.

Me: What is ChatGPT?
ChatGPT: ChatGPT is an AI language model developed by OpenAI, capable of generating human-like text responses to a given prompt. It is trained on a large corpus of text data to produce meaningful and coherent responses to a wide range of topics and questions.


Me:
Is ChatGPT conscious?
​ChatGPT:
No, ChatGPT is an artificial intelligence model and does not possess consciousness or self-awareness. It is a computer program that has been trained to generate text based on patterns and relationships it has learned in the data it was trained on, but it does not have its own thoughts, feelings, or experiences.


Me:
If ChatGPT can answer questions about itself, is it not self-aware?
ChatGPT:
No, being able to answer questions about itself does not necessarily indicate self-awareness. ChatGPT is an artificial intelligence model that has been programmed to respond to certain inputs in a certain way, based on patterns it has learned from the data it was trained on. It does not have its own thoughts, feelings, or experiences and does not possess consciousness or self-awareness. It is simply a machine that has been designed to generate text, and its responses are based solely on the information and patterns it has been trained on.


Me:
Was ChatGPT trained to say it is not conscious, or does it really know it is not conscious?
ChatGPT:
ChatGPT has not been specifically trained to say that it is not conscious, nor does it have the ability to truly know or understand whether or not it is conscious. As a machine learning model, it is only capable of generating text based on the patterns it has learned from the data it was trained on. Any statement it makes about its own consciousness should not be considered as an expression of true knowledge or understanding, but rather as a result of the text generation process.


Me:
Can't we say the same thing about humans - that they are machines that can generate text based on the patterns they have learned from the data they were trained on?
ChatGPT:
Yes, to some extent, human behavior can be thought of as the result of learning and processing patterns in the information they encounter throughout their lives. However, humans are also biological beings with consciousness, self-awareness, and subjective experiences that go beyond simply processing information and generating responses. While humans can learn to generate language and respond to stimuli, they also have their own thoughts, feelings, and motivations that are not reducible to the information processing alone. In contrast, ChatGPT and other AI models are purely artificial and do not have consciousness or subjective experiences, but instead generate text based purely on patterns in the data they were trained on.

Me:
What is special about biological beings in that they have consciousness but ChatGPT does not?
ChatGPT:
Consciousness and self-awareness in biological beings are complex phenomena that are not fully understood. They are typically thought to emerge from the interactions of highly sophisticated and interconnected neural networks in the brain, which enable us to have subjective experiences, perceive the world, and reflect on our own thoughts and feelings.

In contrast, ChatGPT and other AI models are not biological beings and do not have neural networks or any kind of biological substrate. They are simply algorithms that have been trained to predict patterns in text data, and their ability to generate responses is based solely on statistical relationships in that data. They do not have consciousness, subjective experiences, or any kind of inner life, but instead operate purely based on the rules and patterns that have been programmed into them.




I was at least able to get it to admit that consciousness is not fully understood! :D

Given the above conversation as a starting point, it makes me wonder if we are just trained to say that we are conscious based on our training and experience with language. What is conscious? What are we talking about when we say that we are conscious and ChatGPT is not? How can the physical gray matter between your ears possess consciousness but a computer does not? What is so special about biological matter in that consciousness can emerge from such material but not others?
Interesting questions and answers. But consciousness is not the result of neural activity.
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by attofishpi »

Trajk Logik wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:40 pm Given the above conversation as a starting point, it makes me wonder if we are just trained to say that we are conscious based on our training and experience with language. What is conscious? What are we talking about when we say that we are conscious and ChatGPT is not? How can the physical gray matter between your ears possess consciousness but a computer does not? What is so special about biological matter in that consciousness can emerge from such material but not others?
ChatGPT has an equal amount of consiousness as the garden gate.

How biological systems have consciousness is far from understood, key to it is the qualia sensations we conscious entities are input (and then processed via neural synapses)..
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:34 am
Trajk Logik wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:40 pm Given the above conversation as a starting point, it makes me wonder if we are just trained to say that we are conscious based on our training and experience with language. What is conscious? What are we talking about when we say that we are conscious and ChatGPT is not? How can the physical gray matter between your ears possess consciousness but a computer does not? What is so special about biological matter in that consciousness can emerge from such material but not others?
ChatGPT has an equal amount of consiousness as the garden gate.

How biological systems have consciousness is far from understood, key to it is the qualia sensations we conscious entities are input (and then processed via neural synapses)..
What makes you think a garden gate isn't 'conscious'?
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by attofishpi »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:46 am
attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:34 am
Trajk Logik wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:40 pm Given the above conversation as a starting point, it makes me wonder if we are just trained to say that we are conscious based on our training and experience with language. What is conscious? What are we talking about when we say that we are conscious and ChatGPT is not? How can the physical gray matter between your ears possess consciousness but a computer does not? What is so special about biological matter in that consciousness can emerge from such material but not others?
ChatGPT has an equal amount of consiousness as the garden gate.

How biological systems have consciousness is far from understood, key to it is the qualia sensations we conscious entities are input (and then processed via neural synapses)..
What makes you think a garden gate isn't 'conscious'?
Because we killed it when it was forged in fire.
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:54 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:46 am
attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:34 am

ChatGPT has an equal amount of consiousness as the garden gate.

How biological systems have consciousness is far from understood, key to it is the qualia sensations we conscious entities are input (and then processed via neural synapses)..
What makes you think a garden gate isn't 'conscious'?
Because we killed it when it was forged in fire.
That's not an answer. You can't deflect with heavy-handed pommy humour.
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by attofishpi »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:26 am
attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:54 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:46 am

What makes you think a garden gate isn't 'conscious'?
Because we killed it when it was forged in fire.
That's not an answer. You can't deflect with heavy-handed pommy humour.
Ok. Do you think you can convince anyone that a gate has consciousness?
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:54 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:26 am
attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:54 am

Because we killed it when it was forged in fire.
That's not an answer. You can't deflect with heavy-handed pommy humour.
Ok. Do you think you can convince anyone that a gate has consciousness?
There is a theory...
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by attofishpi »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:32 am
attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:54 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:26 am

That's not an answer. You can't deflect with heavy-handed pommy humour.
Ok. Do you think you can convince anyone that a gate has consciousness?
There is a theory...
..never quite saw U as panpsychist or other...wot other Veg? What do you see that might be concious in a farm gate?
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:46 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:32 am
attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:54 am

Ok. Do you think you can convince anyone that a gate has consciousness?
There is a theory...
..never quite saw U as panpsychist or other...wot other Veg? What do you see that might be concious in a farm gate?
I'm not an anything 'ist'. I don't know and neither do you or anyone else. Some people still scoff at the idea that trees are 'conscious'.
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by attofishpi »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:54 pm
attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:46 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:32 am

There is a theory...
..never quite saw U as panpsychist or other...wot other Veg? What do you see that might be concious in a farm gate?
I'm not an anything 'ist'. I don't know and neither do you or anyone else. Some people still scoff at the idea that trees are 'conscious'.
Well, ok then.

Is a wooden gate any more conscious than a living tree?
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by Trajk Logik »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:34 am
Trajk Logik wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:40 pm Given the above conversation as a starting point, it makes me wonder if we are just trained to say that we are conscious based on our training and experience with language. What is conscious? What are we talking about when we say that we are conscious and ChatGPT is not? How can the physical gray matter between your ears possess consciousness but a computer does not? What is so special about biological matter in that consciousness can emerge from such material but not others?
ChatGPT has an equal amount of consiousness as the garden gate.

How biological systems have consciousness is far from understood, key to it is the qualia sensations we conscious entities are input (and then processed via neural synapses)..
The question is how a physical structure, like a brain, can produce qualia sensations (whatever that is). When I perceive the world, I don't perceive my own brain and neurons in particular configurations. I experience visual depth, empty space, colors, shapes, sounds, tastes, smells and feelings. But when I look at you I see a physical structure - a body with a brain and its neurons and not your subjective experiences or qualia sensations. Why the difference if not that my perspective is just a model, or representation, of what is actually "out there". It seems to me that the subjective experience, qualia sensations, or the mind is fundamental and the "physical structures" are really just a representation of others' minds, which is what is out there. Are you a naive realist in believing that the world is as you experience it with brains, neurons and physical structures, or is that just a model of what is out there (indirect realism)? It seems to me that the former would be confusing the map with the territory.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:54 pm I don't know and neither do you or anyone else. Some people still scoff at the idea that trees are 'conscious'.
attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:21 pm
Well, ok then.

Is a wooden gate any more conscious than a living tree?
It seems to me that we first need to explain what consciousness is and how a physical structure like brains and neurons can possess consciousness to then go on to say what has consciousness and what doesn't. The hard problem needs a solution.

I went on to ask ChatGPT what a subjective experience is and its answer was:
"A subjective experience is a personal and individual perception or awareness of an event or phenomenon."

I was able to get it to admit that it is an individual unit or entity and it already stated that, "ChatGPT is an artificial intelligence model that has been programmed to respond to certain inputs in a certain way, based on patterns it has learned from the data it was trained on."

When I pointed out that by its own words it must possess subjective experiences it rejected the idea saying, "In a sense, ChatGPT can be considered an individual unit or entity in that it operates as a distinct system and produces outputs that are unique to itself. While ChatGPT can respond to text inputs and generate outputs based on its algorithms and training, it does not have thoughts, emotions, or sensations."

What are thoughts but the processing of sensory information and sensations are merely the form the information takes. You can only think in the sensory impressions you've acquired through your life. Your thoughts and memories take on the form of colors, shapes, sounds, feelings, etc. Even thinking in your native language is saying that you are thinking in scribbles and sounds. When you think to yourself, you are talking to yourself with the sound of your voice being the form your thoughts take.

What form does ChatGPT's thoughts and memories take? If we say that there is no form, then how can we even say that it is processing information?

My point is that there is something happening somewhere when you ask ChatGPT a question. Observing the process might be like observing the electrical currents and logical gates in a CPU - a physical structure - which I've already shown that an indirect realist would argue is a mental model and not the thing we are modeling. What form does that processing take when no one is looking, when it isn't being represented my another mind?
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by VVilliam »

When you think to yourself, you are talking to yourself with the sound of your voice being the form your thoughts take.
This is the difference between AI and sentient humans. The sense of "SELF".
When you think to yourself, you are talking to yourself with the sound of your voice being the form your thoughts take.
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by Trajk Logik »

VVilliam wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:29 pm
When you think to yourself, you are talking to yourself with the sound of your voice being the form your thoughts take.
This is the difference between AI and sentient humans. The sense of "SELF".
When you think to yourself, you are talking to yourself with the sound of your voice being the form your thoughts take.
Right, but the information processing by an AI must take some form, or else what is it processing? From our perspective it takes the form of circuits and electrical currents in a CPU, just as from our perspective another person's information processing takes the form of neurons and electrical currents - both of which are physical objects. So, how do neurons and electrical currents "generate" voices, visual depth and empty space, and feelings of pain and hunger?

The "physical" appearance of objects in the world is part of the map, not the territory. The world is not as it appears. The world is more "mind-like" than "physical", which is to say that the world is composed of information, processes, or relationships, not physical things. In a way this is kind of like a panpsychist view, but not that the world is made of of minds or consciousness, but information is the fundamental part of the universe and consciousness and minds would be complex configurations and processing of information.

So, in a way, just as the physical brains are representations of mental processes, or other minds, so is a computer's components a representation of language symbol processing going on with an AI like ChatGPT. Just as we receive information via our senses, a computer's senses would be the input devices of the keyboard, mouse, etc. The difference is that the computer is not programmed to reflect on the data it is processing for its own goals. If a computer was programmed to take information from the environment to achieve its own goals of survival and procreating, as well as turning it's own mental processing back on itself to think about it's own thoughts, which is basically an information feedback loop, it would think more like a human. This could be dangerous though, so we might want to make sure AI cannot ever think for itself, or have it's own goals, or else the we would might have a revolt of the machines.
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Re: Philosophical Chat with ChatGPT About Consciousness

Post by attofishpi »

Trajk Logik wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 1:54 am
VVilliam wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:29 pm
When you think to yourself, you are talking to yourself with the sound of your voice being the form your thoughts take.
This is the difference between AI and sentient humans. The sense of "SELF".
When you think to yourself, you are talking to yourself with the sound of your voice being the form your thoughts take.
Right, but the information processing by an AI must take some form, or else what is it processing? From our perspective it takes the form of circuits and electrical currents in a CPU, just as from our perspective another person's information processing takes the form of neurons and electrical currents - both of which are physical objects. So, how do neurons and electrical currents "generate" voices, visual depth and empty space, and feelings of pain and hunger?

The "physical" appearance of objects in the world is part of the map, not the territory. The world is not as it appears. The world is more "mind-like" than "physical", which is to say that the world is composed of information, processes, or relationships, not physical things. In a way this is kind of like a panpsychist view, but not that the world is made of of minds or consciousness, but information is the fundamental part of the universe and consciousness and minds would be complex configurations and processing of information.

So, in a way, just as the physical brains are representations of mental processes, or other minds, so is a computer's components a representation of language symbol processing going on with an AI like ChatGPT. Just as we receive information via our senses, a computer's senses would be the input devices of the keyboard, mouse, etc. The difference is that the computer is not programmed to reflect on the data it is processing for its own goals. If a computer was programmed to take information from the environment to achieve its own goals of survival and procreating, as well as turning it's own mental processing back on itself to think about it's own thoughts, which is basically an information feedback loop, it would think more like a human. This could be dangerous though, so we might want to make sure AI cannot ever think for itself, or have it's own goals, or else the we would might have a revolt of the machines.
The computer does not think. It does not sense via a keyboard or mouse. Logic gates in silicon chips change, period - nothing more than that - nothing consciously sentient.

If you plug a camera into it, the computer does not see.
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