Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:30 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 1:31 am Consciousness is inert which means that it cannot cause things by itself. We, however, are able to experience and cause therefore we should have minds with the ability to experience and cause.
All creatures are reactive creatures to the physical world as cause, whose reactions are then cause to the physical world. If this were not so, evolutionary development to a changing world would not be possible. Consciousness is biological reaction to the energy forms of the physical world.
How does experience turn to causation?
popeye1945
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:42 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:30 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 1:31 am Consciousness is inert which means that it cannot cause things by itself. We, however, are able to experience and cause therefore we should have minds with the ability to experience and cause.
All creatures are reactive creatures to the physical world as cause, whose reactions are then cause to the physical world. If this were not so, evolutionary development to a changing world would not be possible. Consciousness is biological reaction to the energy forms of the physical world.
How does experience turn to causation?
Experience is reaction to the physical world as cause, the biological reaction then is cause to the physical world. Life has its effects upon the physical world transforming it as it is itself transformed. There is no such thing as human action there is but human reaction for one must be moved within before one can move without, the term motivation itself spells reaction.
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bahman
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:51 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:42 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:30 pm

All creatures are reactive creatures to the physical world as cause, whose reactions are then cause to the physical world. If this were not so, evolutionary development to a changing world would not be possible. Consciousness is biological reaction to the energy forms of the physical world.
How does experience turn to causation?
Experience is reaction to the physical world as cause, the biological reaction then is cause to the physical world. Life has its effects upon the physical world transforming it as it is itself transformed. There is no such thing as human action there is but human reaction for one must be moved within before one can move without, the term motivation itself spells reaction.
So you don't know.
popeye1945
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:44 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:51 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:42 pm

How does experience turn to causation?
Experience is reaction to the physical world as cause, the biological reaction then is cause to the physical world. Life has its effects upon the physical world transforming it as it is itself transformed. There is no such thing as human action there is but human reaction for one must be moved within before one can move without, the term motivation itself spells reaction.
So you don't know.
When one reacts to a stimulus as in changing something in the physical world is this not cause to the physical world? Is not the current climate crisis due to human activity cause? What to you indicates cause? Perhaps I do not understand your question, as I do not know what would satisfy your definition. Please then rephrase the question for clarification.
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bahman
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:04 am
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:44 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:51 pm

Experience is reaction to the physical world as cause, the biological reaction then is cause to the physical world. Life has its effects upon the physical world transforming it as it is itself transformed. There is no such thing as human action there is but human reaction for one must be moved within before one can move without, the term motivation itself spells reaction.
So you don't know.
When one reacts to a stimulus as in changing something in the physical world is this not cause to the physical world? Is not the current climate crisis due to human activity cause? What to you indicates cause? Perhaps I do not understand your question, as I do not know what would satisfy your definition. Please then rephrase the question for clarification.
How does the experience turn to causation?
popeye1945
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:26 am
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:04 am
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:44 am
So you don't know.
When one reacts to a stimulus as in changing something in the physical world is this not cause to the physical world? Is not the current climate crisis due to human activity cause? What to you indicates cause? Perhaps I do not understand your question, as I do not know what would satisfy your definition. Please then rephrase the question for clarification.
How does the experience turn to causation?
Well experience itself is a reaction and chain reactions are the processes of understanding, with understanding one reacts again to the stimulus of the physical world, this reaction is cause to the physical world. All organisms are reactive creatures to the physical world; reaction is the mode of being part of and being of the world, in causation- reaction -causation.
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bahman
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:34 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:26 am
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:04 am

When one reacts to a stimulus as in changing something in the physical world is this not cause to the physical world? Is not the current climate crisis due to human activity cause? What to you indicates cause? Perhaps I do not understand your question, as I do not know what would satisfy your definition. Please then rephrase the question for clarification.
How does the experience turn to causation?
Well experience itself is a reaction and chain reactions are the processes of understanding, with understanding one reacts again to the stimulus of the physical world, this reaction is cause to the physical world. All organisms are reactive creatures to the physical world; reaction is the mode of being part of and being of the world, in causation- reaction -causation.
Let me explain this to you better: Experience is one thing and causation is another thing. Within materialism, one needs to first explain how experience can arrises from something, matter, which cannot experience. Answering that one then needs to explain how experience can turn into causation.
popeye1945
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:17 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:34 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:26 am
How does the experience turn to causation?
Well experience itself is a reaction and chain reactions are the processes of understanding, with understanding one reacts again to the stimulus of the physical world, this reaction is cause to the physical world. All organisms are reactive creatures to the physical world; reaction is the mode of being part of and being of the world, in causation- reaction -causation.
Let me explain this to you better: Experience is one thing and causation is another thing. Within materialism, one needs to first explain how experience can arise from something, matter, which cannot experience. Answering that one then needs to explain how experience can turn into causation.
Reaction to experience is causation when it is directed outwardly to the world at large. Can I answer how the inanimate world gives rise to consciousness? No of course not, but I think the relation between the physical world and the organic world, meaning its reactive creatures is something that can be understood. There is causation and there is reaction but there is no such thing as human action, for the very term motivation infers reaction, so you have causation -reaction- causation as evolutionary function and the connection of all things. Do you understand that experience is cognition of the alterations made to a conscious subject's biology? I do not even know how my television works, never mind the complex chemistry of consciousness.
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bahman
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:53 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:17 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:34 pm

Well experience itself is a reaction and chain reactions are the processes of understanding, with understanding one reacts again to the stimulus of the physical world, this reaction is cause to the physical world. All organisms are reactive creatures to the physical world; reaction is the mode of being part of and being of the world, in causation- reaction -causation.
Let me explain this to you better: Experience is one thing and causation is another thing. Within materialism, one needs to first explain how experience can arise from something, matter, which cannot experience. Answering that one then needs to explain how experience can turn into causation.
Reaction to experience is causation when it is directed outwardly to the world at large. Can I answer how the inanimate world gives rise to consciousness? No of course not, but I think the relation between the physical world and the organic world, meaning its reactive creatures is something that can be understood.
So you don't know how the experience emerges from insentient matter. In fact, the strong emergence is impossible. I have an argument against that.
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:34 pm There is causation and there is reaction but there is no such thing as human action, for the very term motivation infers reaction, so you have causation -reaction- causation as evolutionary function and the connection of all things. Do you understand that experience is cognition of the alterations made to a conscious subject's biology? I do not even know how my television works, never mind the complex chemistry of consciousness.
You also don't know how experience can turn into causation.
popeye1945
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:11 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:53 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:17 pm
Let me explain this to you better: Experience is one thing and causation is another thing. Within materialism, one needs to first explain how experience can arise from something, matter, which cannot experience. Answering that one then needs to explain how experience can turn into causation.
Reaction to experience is causation when it is directed outwardly to the world at large. Can I answer how the inanimate world gives rise to consciousness? No of course not, but I think the relation between the physical world and the organic world, meaning its reactive creatures is something that can be understood.
So you don't know how the experience emerges from insentient matter. In fact, the strong emergence is impossible. I have an argument against that.
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:34 pm There is causation and there is reaction but there is no such thing as human action, for the very term motivation infers reaction, so you have causation -reaction- causation as evolutionary function and the connection of all things. Do you understand that experience is cognition of the alterations made to a conscious subject's biology? I do not even know how my television works, never mind the complex chemistry of consciousness.
You also don't know how experience can turn into causation.
One wishes to affect a change in what experience has taught us, thus making it one's will to affect said change, or are you talking about the actual chemistry?
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bahman
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:06 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:11 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:53 pm
Reaction to experience is causation when it is directed outwardly to the world at large. Can I answer how the inanimate world gives rise to consciousness? No of course not, but I think the relation between the physical world and the organic world, meaning its reactive creatures is something that can be understood.
So you don't know how the experience emerges from insentient matter. In fact, the strong emergence is impossible. I have an argument against that.
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:34 pm There is causation and there is reaction but there is no such thing as human action, for the very term motivation infers reaction, so you have causation -reaction- causation as evolutionary function and the connection of all things. Do you understand that experience is cognition of the alterations made to a conscious subject's biology? I do not even know how my television works, never mind the complex chemistry of consciousness.
You also don't know how experience can turn into causation.
One wishes to affect a change in what experience has taught us, thus making it one's will to affect said change, or are you talking about the actual chemistry?
I am talking about the emergence of experience that you have no explanation for it and how the experience can turn into causation.
popeye1945
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:58 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:06 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:11 pm
So you don't know how the experience emerges from insentient matter. In fact, the strong emergence is impossible. I have an argument against that.


You also don't know how experience can turn into causation.
One wishes to affect a change in what experience has taught us, thus making it one's will to affect said change, or are you talking about the actual chemistry?
I am talking about the emergence of experience that you have no explanation for it and how the experience can turn into causation.

Experience is the physical world altering a subject's biology in some way. It was Spinoza that pointed out that the body is the mind's first idea, and it is through the body and its alteration that one comes to know the world, this is as emergent as it gets, or you could call it biological readout; apparent reality is biological reactions. Causation is reaction directed outward, causation you might say is the subject bestowing meaning upon a meaningless world. The physical world is causation to all reactionary creatures and all reactionary creatures are causation in the physical world.
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bahman
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:53 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:58 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:06 pm

One wishes to affect a change in what experience has taught us, thus making it one's will to affect said change, or are you talking about the actual chemistry?
I am talking about the emergence of experience that you have no explanation for it and how the experience can turn into causation.

Experience is the physical world altering a subject's biology in some way. It was Spinoza that pointed out that the body is the mind's first idea, and it is through the body and its alteration that one comes to know the world, this is as emergent as it gets, or you could call it biological readout; apparent reality is biological reactions. Causation is reaction directed outward, causation you might say is the subject bestowing meaning upon a meaningless world. The physical world is causation to all reactionary creatures and all reactionary creatures are causation in the physical world.
Spinoza was not aware of the hard problem of consciousness.
popeye1945
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:43 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:53 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:58 pm
I am talking about the emergence of experience that you have no explanation for it and how the experience can turn into causation.

Experience is the physical world altering a subject's biology in some way. It was Spinoza that pointed out that the body is the mind's first idea, and it is through the body and its alteration that one comes to know the world, this is as emergent as it gets, or you could call it biological readout; apparent reality is biological reactions. Causation is reaction directed outward, causation you might say is the subject bestowing meaning upon a meaningless world. The physical world is causation to all reactionary creatures and all reactionary creatures are causation in the physical world.
Spinoza was not aware of the hard problem of consciousness.
Spinoza was more aware than most about consciousness itself, but you are right science has avoided the topic until it realized it was playing an elementary role in what we call apparent reality; the quantum enigma changed all that.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind

Post by Iwannaplato »

I think this is a double reification...
Consiousness is inert therefore there is a mind
Entities are conscious [adjective]. It's one of their qualities.
Entities are not inert.
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