Experiment to show your state of delusion

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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roydop
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by roydop »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:37 pm Roydop tries twice and still can't get the quote function
Let me fix that

No, YOU can't sit quietly in a room without having a voice nattering away in your consciousness. Here I am doing exactly that for 2 hours

https://youtu.be/NJzTD1SInxU

Here is the situation. You are unable to understand my perspective because you are unable to stop your thoughts. You are unable to control your own mind and because of this you THINk that it's impossible; that it's a state that doesn't exist

You're wrong.

Now you will blah blah blah with that mind you can't control to try to convince yourself that you're just fine and everything is the way you think it is (or you will try to avoid, distract, and mock, so that you won't have to face the fact that you have no control over your own mind).
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Harbal
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by Harbal »

roydop wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:50 pm
No, YOU can't sit quietly in a room without having a voice nattering away in your consciousness. Here I am doing exactly that for 2 hours
Why do you imagine that anyone who watches you staring into space for two hours, looking like someone with brain death, would want to emulate you? And why on earth would you want anyone to see you in that state? You look absolutely bloody ridiculous. :?
Iwannaplato
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by Iwannaplato »

roydop wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:50 pm Now you will blah blah blah with that mind you can't control to try to convince yourself that you're just fine and everything is the way you think it is (or you will try to avoid, distract, and mock, so that you won't have to face the fact that you have no control over your own mind).
Notice that he is advocating controlling the self. Instead of integrating voices/parts/suppressed feelings, he practices (as do many inspired by Eastern systems of self control and self disidentification) make the disconnections even more profound. So, he can still, suppress, eliminate, push down, cut off connection to parts of himself that he judges.

I do have sympathy for Eastern systems and their fear about what lurks deep down in the self, but ultimately they offer no solution, as can be seen by the number of skilled meditators and gurus and masters who end up in sexual abuse scandals, power plays, sadistic emotional relations, narcissism and more. You cannot meditate away fundamental self-relation and interpersonal issues. No amount of sitting around in bliss gets at that stuff.

As I said earlier...
One of the reasons it seems like one does not have direct control of thoughts (and feelings and images and voices) that arise is because we have been trained to disidentify and suppress parts of ourselves. Guilt, trauma, shaming, cultural and familial pressures and more lead us to split off into parts. But these parts of one keep on going. They are you, but the part of you looking/feeling/seeing/hearing them has disidentified with those parts and they seem separate. They seem to run on their own. The Eastern-ish approach is to disidentify even further. Just observe, encourage silence (blankness) wordlessness. Banish the parts from the available media. Tell yourself you are not even the poor little left over observer who seems to be infiltrated by these intrusions.
Or...
one can reallow the parts to be a part of the self. Allow emotions to be expressed, rather then suppressed or merely observed. Allow the thoughts to be the tips of icebergs of whole pieces of the self that have been semi-banished or, those in dreams, perhaps banished entirely. Extending is a floppy way the iceberg metaphor, imagine an enormous iceberg which has dozens of peaks. One peak may think it is looking at other things, but under the water, deep down those other icebergs are part of the same iceberg. So, you can choose to reallow expression, even of the bad parts and the ones that confuse you.
RD assumes that anyone disagreeing with him cannot sit internally silent, but he's wrong about this. Further his route to inner stillness is based on hatred of the limbic system, for example, which is no longer allowed to directly express. You can see his flat affect in the videos. You can also see here in his interactions, his blind spots related to human dynamics and his own role in them.

It is beyond his comprehension that people who cannot or don't want to sit without thinking for long periods could possibly notice any problems he might have.

And unfortunately future sessions of what he is calling bliss are not going to help him improve introspection or deal with toxic patterns in himself.
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:23 am THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU.
Age wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:22 amThere IS if what 'you' are doing is ABUSING "others".
But if one has recognised being in a state of 'abusing others', and so has experienced this state directly, and thus knows 'It' exists, then they could NOT be wrong.
WHAT?

WHY do the 'thoughts' and 'thinking' WITHIN that body DRIFT SO FAR OFF and FROM the 'thoughts' that 'they' are REPLYING TO?

Are 'you', seriously, here saying, 'If, and WHEN, 'one' KNOWS that 'they' ARE ABUSING "another", then there is NO way POSSIBLE that 'they' could KNOW that what 'they' are doing IS Wrong?

How could just coming to REALIZE, and thus KNOW, ' 'i' exist ', then logically follow to, then that 'one' could 'NOT be wrong'?
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm
This is because Oneness is ONLY INFINITY HERE and NOW. This immediate present Not-Knowing Non-Dual NOW
BUT, and ONCE AGAIN, this One IS ALL-Knowing and SO DOES KNOW 'I' exist. But, and OBVIOUSLY, this One does NOT ABUSE ABSOLUTELY ANY 'thing' BECAUSE ABSOLUTELY EVERY 'thing' IS It 'Self'.

ONLY 'you', adult human beings, ABUSE 'things'. Absolutely NO OTHER 'thing' in the WHOLE of thee Universe ABUSES 'things'. Unless, OF COURSE, there is ANOTHER so-called "intelligent" enough species to KNOW Right from Wrong, and which is ALSO DOING the Wrong 'thing' and ABUSING OTHER 'things'.

ONCE AGAIN, "dontaskme", 'you' ARE CONFUSING 'i' with 'I', or 'you', human beings, with thee One and ONLY One, here.
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm
In the appearance of knowing, the pretence play of duality, yes, by all means kill the behavior, as you are the seeing of it all.
But, 'I', thee SEER, and Knower of 'it' ALL, am NOT a 'you'. 'I' also do NOT 'kill' ANY 'thing', well NOT in the way that 'you', adult human beings, IMAGINE.

'I' ALLOW 'you', human beings, to LEARN and DO ABSOLUTELY ANY 'thing' of YOUR CHOOSING. 'you' WILL KILL your OWN Wrong 'behaviors' WHEN 'you' are READY TO, and on 'your' OWN, I will add. That way the SATISFACTION and REWARDS of doing things ALL BY "your" OWN 'self' can be ALL 'yours' and ALL SO MUCH MORE SATISFYING and REWARDING. However, since 'you' used the 'kill' word here, when that word is used in the 'koran' it more or less means what 'you' are suggesting here, and that 'kill' 'the behavior' and NOT 'the human body', as some BELIEVE that is what 'it' means.
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm You are ONLY INFINITY HERE and NOW where everything is already welcome, and the seeing of it all is the welcoming.
I am NOT SURE HOW MANY TIMES 'you' have to be REMINDED "dontaskme" BEFORE this 'sinks in', as some say, but the word 'you' refers to and implies an 'other', of which there obviously can NOT be in Oneness and in this One and ONLY INFINITELY and ETERNALLY HERE, and, NOW.

There is ONLY 'I'.

There is NO 'YOU', as spoken FROM or pointed out FROM an "other".
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm There is nothing to do but feel and experience life just the way it already is.
Are 'you' SURE that there is absolutely NOTHING ELSE to do, but just these two 'things' here?
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm Kill what you know you could not be wrong about at it's root by not making the potential for abuse and victimhood to be part of the play of duality, in other words, if a person is labeled an abuser that will automatically create another person to play the role of victim. Kill the behavior not the person.
Well IF 'you' had EVER NOTICED within MY WRITINGS whenever I refer to a 'person' as a 'thing' like a "victim", "abuser", "muslim", "christian", "american", "scandanavian", "teacher", "scientist", et cetera I ALWAYS, if NOT forgotten to, put 'them' in double quotation marks BECAUSE this denotes to 'them' as NOT being an ACTUAL REAL 'thing' ANYWAY.

To 'me', there is NO one who is an 'abuser' NOR a 'victim'. There are, however, human beings who do ABUSE "others", and human beings who are ABUSED by "others". And, the ones who do the ABUSING are ALWAYS 'you', adult human beings.
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm The behavior is the enemy not the person.
It appears like 'you' are 'trying to' ARGUE or FIGHT AGAINST 'Me', or what 'I' have said, but I have NEVER said ANY such thing.
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm We did not fight the enemy, we fought only ourselves and the enemy was in us. Either, kill the behavior, or kill the one who is capable of knowing the behavior.
Now that 'you' have mentioned 'kill' the 'one', then what this means or refers to, to 'me', is to just 'kill' a 'person', which, to 'me', is just an INVISIBLE 'thing', namely the 'thoughts' WITHIN a 'human body' and by 'killing' that 'one' is done just through CHANGE, with absolutely NO physical harm NOR damage being done to 'the body'.
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm It's all your own story you are creating for yourself.
Which is absolutely NO different for 'you', ALSO, right?
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm Who are you without your story.
Well;

'I', in the physical sense, AM thee, visible, Universe, Itself.
'I', in the spiritual sense, AM thee, invisible, Mind, Itself.
'i', in the physical sense, am the, visible, human body, itself.
'i', in the spiritual sense, am the, invisible, thoughts (and emotions), within this human body, itself.

So, 'who' am 'i' is a 'person', or whatever 'else' 'you' want to call 'me'. Whereas, 'who' am 'I' is God, or whatever 'else' 'you' want to call 'Me'.

So, 'who' am 'i' or 'I' is the one or thee One that transcends ALL stories, but which EXISTS and STANDS BY thee ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth ALONE.

Who do 'you' think 'you' are "dontaskme" without 'your' very OWN 'story'?

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm If you say you know...then the only way to stop this knowing would be to stop making more knowers. This is not too difficult to understand.
Not it is NOT. And, it is also NOT too difficult to understand just how ABSURD and RIDICULOUS A 'story' it IS, AS WELL.
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm Animals do not know they are causing pain to another creature when they rip it apart limb from limb in order to survive.
WHO CARES?

Also, are 'you' here 'trying to' CLAIM that 'you', the animal species known as 'human beings' here, do NOT know 'you' are causing pain to ANOTHER 'animal' or 'creature', when 'you' rip ANOTHER animal creature apart limb from limb in order to either survive, or when 'you' do it 'just for fun'?
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm But, yes, if you are in the know, then you will see that life is nothing more than a brutal bloodbath, a not so pretty meatgrinder and it's eating you alive until you are all shriveled up to the dust you started off as...
ONCE AGAIN, yes "dontaskme" 'we' are ALREADY AWARE of 'your' VERY OWN BELIEFS and STORY here. And, 'we' are ALSO VERY AWARE that 'you' like to bring almost all conversations, discussions, or topics back to this 'fact' of YOURS. But let 'me' remind 'you' that 'you' are just making up THIS STORY because of 'your' OWN past experiences, and which 'you' are, literally, NOT 'you' WITHOUT THIS STORY.

Do 'you' REALLY BELIEVE that 'you' would be carrying on with this EXACT SAME STORY if 'you' were brought up WITHIN a family that LOVED 'you' and CHERISHED 'you' for who and what 'you' REALLY ARE?
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm your life has basically gone round in a pointless circle of baby in nappies to an old person in nappies.There are no boundaries between you and the rest of life. There is no fulfillment or escape.
But the word 'you', usually refers to ANOTHER 'human being', individually, and, OBVIOUSLY NO single human being has gone around from a 'younger one' in nappies to an 'older one' in nappies, and then BACK TO a 'younger one' in nappies AGAIN.
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm There is no you and me.
NOT in the Truest sense, I KNOW, and ALREADY KNEW.

That is what 'I' keep INFORMING 'you' OF. But 'you' KEEP TELLING 'us' that there is ONLY 'you', in an INFINITE Oneness, of which 'I' keep reminding 'you', the one here known as "dontaskme" that the word 'you' refers to an "other", of which there is NOT in ABSOLUTE Oneness.

HOWEVER, considering the Fact that 'you', human beings, communicate WITH and TO "each other", through words, then the words 'you' AND 'me', OBVIOUSLY, refers to TWO different 'human beings'. That is 'one' in one human body and the "other" in ANOTHER human body.

The words 'you' and 'me' refers to the people, WITHIN human bodies. Although there is NO ACTUAL 'you' AND 'me' in ANY other form than invisible 'thoughts', and 'emotions', 'we' NEEDED to use words like these, which ONLY CONCEPTUALLY 'separates' thee One into MANY 'things' so that 'we', human beings, could make SENSE OF and UNDERSTAND this 'world'/Universe that 'we' have found "ourselves" WITHIN.
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm This is because in Oneness there is ONLY thee INFINITE HERE and NOW. Which, OBVIOUSLY, could NOT 'age'.
'you' are now ONLY SAYING what 'I' have ALREADY EXPRESSED, and SAID.
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:22 pm There are no boundaries between you and the rest of life. There is no inside or outside.
LOL By just SAYING and STATING the word 'you', 'you' are CAUSING and CREATING A SEPARATION BETWEEN ANOTHER 'one' AND 'you'.

What thee ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth IS, EXACTLY, IS - There is NO boundary between 'I'.

But, unfortunately, the so-called 'teachings', which 'you', "dontaskme", have LISTENED TO and like to FOLLOW and ADHERE TO TELL 'you' that there is NO 'I'.

But what is ACTUALLY MEANT IS that there are NO separated 'i's. That is; there are NO separated 'you's.

There IS REALLY ONLY JUST One, and that One IS 'I', or 'Life', Itself, and there is absolutely NO 'thing' SEPARATING thee 'I' in ANY way, shape, NOR form.

'I' am just CHANGING in shape AND form ALWAYS, and in ALL WAYS, it could be said.
Age
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by Age »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:38 pm
roydop wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:38 am If you sit in a quiet room without doing or thinking anything (if the body is "you" and the thoughts in your consciousness are "yours", then one would assume that you would be able to control the movements of the body and the mind) you will see:

A: You will not be able to stop thinking for more than a few seconds at a time. You will have no choice but to listen to the voice that is speaking into your consciousness

B: Of those thoughts you will have no choice what the thoughts will be. They will enter your consciousness at random

If you are objective and relatively ego-free, you will come to the conclusion that you do not have control over your own mind. Another reasonable conclusion would be that this uncontrolled mind is the source of all of your problems

Being able to steer your car one way or another while having no brakes or parking gear, is not having control over your car. In the same way, being able to steer the thoughts that enter your consciousness one way or another while not being able to stop them, is not having control over the (it's not yours) mind

Even though this is obvious there will be some here who will refuse to see. This is due to their deep state of delusion. The thing about delusion is that people who are in it don't know are in it because they are in it

I have made my way out of the delusion and feel a natural drive to help others out of it

🙏
Wow.
This is incoherent on so many levels it is difficult to know where to start.
My conclusion is that Roydop's state of delusion is very established, in that he has no idea about the basic processes of cognition.
1. He starts by contradicting himself by suggesting that you can sit quietly in a room without thinking ( you cannot do this unless you are dead); then he says you can't do this in point A.
He then says without justification that thoughts entering your consciousness (problematic in itself) are "random". (they are not).
Then he considers the possibility that you might be "objective" in this state. :D :lol: How is that possible when the definition of subjective would seem to be having a conversation internally?
But how do these two follow, logically?

It is possible to be 'objective' when one is NOT having an internal 'subjective' dialogue/conversation.

Also, although it is actually possible to be 'objective' in this state, if what is learned, realized, or become known in that state is NOT recognized and remember, which can ONLY happen with 'thought', then, REALLY, there was NO ACTUAL USE of being in that state, anyway.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:38 pm THen- how can you be ego free, when you are sitting their conversing with you ego?
Now he performs the greatest dualism imaginable; "You cannot have control over your own mind". WHere is the "you", and where is the "mind". Does Roydop have lots of people in there?

It is perfectly reasonable to have in internal dialogue with your self and consciously steer your thoughts from your consciousness to think on topics you desire, else how would Mr Dop have written his post, and How would I have responded to it.
It is determined by the very nature of my brain how the cause of his post has led to the outcome (effect) of me responding to it. Those thoughts are not random but the sum of my volition, learning and experience
Where is the problem here?
Age
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by Age »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:29 pm To the contrary, the meat of his post is something Sam Harris has explicitly said himself in multiple podcasts. Maybe not all of it, but particularly this bit:
B: Of those thoughts you will have no choice what the thoughts will be. They will enter your consciousness at random

If you are objective and relatively ego-free, you will come to the conclusion that you do not have control over your own mind.
I half thought he was quoting Sam Harris in bits of it.
Considering that a LOT of the words here 'you', human beings, have YET to come-to-KNOW what they ACTUALLY MEAN, there is NO wonder WHY to 'you' this appears as absolutely NONSENSE, or, 'you' are NOT YET ready AND able to EXPLAINED 'it' AT ALL.
Age
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by Age »

roydop wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:43 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:38 pm
roydop wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:38 am If you sit in a quiet room without doing or thinking anything (if the body is "you" and the thoughts in your consciousness are "yours", then one would assume that you would be able to control the movements of the body and the mind) you will see:

A: You will not be able to stop thinking for more than a few seconds at a time. You will have no choice but to listen to the voice that is speaking into your consciousness

B: Of those thoughts you will have no choice what the thoughts will be. They will enter your consciousness at random

If you are objective and relatively ego-free, you will come to the conclusion that you do not have control over your own mind. Another reasonable conclusion would be that this uncontrolled mind is the source of all of your problems

Being able to steer your car one way or another while having no brakes or parking gear, is not having control over your car. In the same way, being able to steer the thoughts that enter your consciousness one way or another while not being able to stop them, is not having control over the (it's not yours) mind

Even though this is obvious there will be some here who will refuse to see. This is due to their deep state of delusion. The thing about delusion is that people who are in it don't know are in it because they are in it

I have made my way out of the delusion and feel a natural drive to help others out of it

🙏
Wow.
This is incoherent on so many levels it is difficult to know where to start.
My conclusion is that Roydop's state of delusion is very established, in that he has no idea about the basic processes of cognition.
1. He starts by contradicting himself by suggesting that you can sit quietly in a room without thinking ( you cannot do this unless you are dead); then he says you can't do this in point A.
He then says without justification that thoughts entering your consciousness (problematic in itself) are "random". (they are not).
Then he considers the possibility that you might be "objective" in this state. :D :lol: How is that possible when the definition of subjective would seem to be having a conversation internally?
THen- how can you be ego free, when you are sitting their conversing with you ego?
Now he performs the greatest dualism imaginable; "You cannot have control over your own mind". WHere is the "you", and where is the "mind". Does Roydop have lots of people in there?

It is perfectly reasonable to have in internal dialogue with your self and consciously steer your thoughts from your consciousness to think on topics you desire, else how would Mr Dop have written his post, and How would I have responded to it.
It is determined by the very nature of my brain how the cause of his post has led to the outcome (effect) of me responding to it. Those thoughts are not random but the sum of my volition, learning and experience
Where is the problem here?
roydop wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:43 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:38 pm" He starts by contradicting himself by suggesting that you can sit quietly in a room without thinking ( you cannot do this unless you are dead)can sit quietly in a room without thinking ( you cannot do this unless you are dead)"
No, YOU can't sit quietly in a room without having a voice nattering away in your consciousness. Here I am doing exactly that for 2 hours
What do 'you' mean by 'YOU' here "roydop".

The human body 'sits', and if 'it' does NOT make ANY, or NOT MUCH, noise, then that body is sitting 'quietly' in a room.

Now, what does the word 'your' mean or refer to, to 'you', in relation to the term or phrase 'your consciousness'?

And, HOW do 'you' KNOW what "others" CAN or CAN NOT DO?

ALSO, and FURTHERMORE, are 'you' here 'trying to' CLAIM that 'you' NEVER spoke NOR 'thought' for those 2 or so hours?

If I recall correctly, the FIRST 'spot' where I jumped to in that video 'you' WERE SPEAKING, and if 'you' somehow BELIEVE that these words were NOT coming from 'thought' or in other words NOT coming from 'voice nattering' WITHIN that body, then 'you' ARE VERY SADLY MISTAKEN.

By the way, 'you' could NOT even "sit" 'quietly' for LESS than ONE minute. 'you' were up and down like one with some sort of attention deficit disorder as well, and 'you' could NOT even HOLD "yourself" from speaking for just thirteen minutes, let alone two hours, which, by the way, that NOISE OBVIOUSLY came from 'thoughts' or 'thinking' and 'nattering voices' WITHIN that body.

When 'you' say and claim that, "Here I am doing exactly 'that' for 2 hours", do 'you' mean that 'you' ALSO can NOT sit quietly for two hours, or even two minutes if the truth be told? Or, are 'you' saying and claiming that 'you' CAN sit quietly in a room without having a voice nattering away WITHIN that body?
roydop wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:43 pm https://youtu.be/NJzTD1SInxU

Here is the situation. You are usable to understand my perspective because you are unable to stop your thoughts.
But 'you', "roydop", have just PROVEN that 'you' could NOT STOP 'thoughts' WITHIN that body ALSO.
roydop wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:43 pm You are unable to control your own mind and because of this you THINk that it's impossible; that it's a state that doesn't exist
So, when 'you' SAY and CLAIM, 'you' are unable to do some 'thing' here, does this APPLY to 'you' ALSO, or ONLY to EVERY one ELSE, besides 'you', the one here known as "roydop"?
You're wrong. [/quote]

Just out of curiosity, let 'us' IMAGINE that the body that was being OBSERVED on a screen did ACTUALLY 'sit' there WITHOUT 'fidgeting', 'clearing throat', 'drinking' AND WITHOUT uttering a single word for one hour, two hours, or ANY other number of hours, then HOW EXACTLY would this PROVE that there was absolutely NO 'thought' NOR 'muttering voice' WITHIN that body?
roydop wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:43 pm Now you will blah blah blah with that mind you can't control to try to convince yourself that you're just fine and everything is the way you think it is
AND, this is NOT what 'you' are doing here ALSO "roydop"?

If 'you' are NOT trying to convince "yourself" that 'you' are just fine and everything is the way 'you' think it is, then what are 'you' here doing EXACTLY, and/or DIFFERENTLY?
Age
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by Age »

roydop wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:45 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:23 am
roydop wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:38 am If you sit in a quiet room without doing or thinking anything (if the body is "you" and the thoughts in your consciousness are "yours", then one would assume that you would be able to control the movements of the body and the mind) you will see:

A: You will not be able to stop thinking for more than a few seconds at a time. You will have no choice but to listen to the voice that is speaking into your consciousness

B: Of those thoughts you will have no choice what the thoughts will be. They will enter your consciousness at random

If you are objective and relatively ego-free, you will come to the conclusion that you do not have control over your own mind. Another reasonable conclusion would be that this uncontrolled mind is the source of all of your problems

Being able to steer your car one way or another while having no brakes or parking gear, is not having control over your car. In the same way, being able to steer the thoughts that enter your consciousness one way or another while not being able to stop them, is not having control over the (it's not yours) mind

Even though this is obvious there will be some here who will refuse to see. This is due to their deep state of delusion. The thing about delusion is that people who are in it don't know are in it because they are in it

I have made my way out of the delusion and feel a natural drive to help others out of it

🙏
Very interesting post Roy, are you a fan of Sam Harris by any chance?

No I am not. Ramana Maharshi is my Sat guru. Eckhart Tolle is also worth listening to
AND, ANY one who says DIFFERENTLY to 'you' is NOT worth listening to. Am I correct?
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by Iwannaplato »

roydop wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:45 pm No I am not. Ramana Maharshi is my Sat guru.
It's good that this is said right out. He has a guru. He is in a tradition where there are lineages from gurus to disciples. He calls some of his own videos satsangs with generally means a somewhat informal meeting with the guru for edification of disciples and others.
These traditions always have power dynamics, usually openly and implicitly.
People here notice the implicit power dynamic and point it out.
It is a defacto narcissistic power dynamic. It is built into the tradition and spreads like a meme that way, though also via non-verbal contagion. There is no guru who is not treated precisely as a narcissist wants to be treated by those who consider that person a guru and in the gurus self-relation.
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by Dontaskme »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:46 pm Notice that he is advocating controlling the self. Instead of integrating voices/parts/suppressed feelings, he practices (as do many inspired by Eastern systems of self control and self disidentification) make the disconnections even more profound. So, he can still, suppress, eliminate, push down, cut off connection to parts of himself that he judges.
Many gurus have classic mental dissociative disorders that involve experiencing a disconnection with what they think is their true identity.

Everyone is their own guru, is already the buddha, and are enlightened, and this is already known to every human heart, and usually kept private within that heart, a knowing they keep to themselves, moving on with their life, always the same as it ever was, chop wood, carry water...etc etc..blah blah blah...

But then every now and again, you get those guru's who feel it is their birthright to preach. Those people are prone to being caught up in their own self-absorbed "cult worshipping" self-serving unhealthy narcissistic mentality.
And the more the devoted followers feel their 'Love Rush', something they perhaps didn't get from their own parents when they were children, now makes them vulnerable where they too become addicts of the 'Love Rush' Cult/Worshipping experience that the guru offers by projecting it out into the followers hearts. As if something searched for can be found externally in some teacher, without realising what they yearn and search for is already within their own being, and not at the feet of some other guru.
The devotees fall into the same trap the guru is in, that of a "cult-prone" and "worship-prone" mentality.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:46 pmI do have sympathy for Eastern systems and their fear about what lurks deep down in the self, but ultimately they offer no solution, as can be seen by the number of skilled meditators and gurus and masters who end up in sexual abuse scandals, power plays, sadistic emotional relations, narcissism and more. You cannot meditate away fundamental self-relation and interpersonal issues. No amount of sitting around in bliss gets at that stuff.
Becoming God: Inside Mooji's Portugal Cult

https://www.gurumag.com/becoming-god-in ... ugal-cult/

Former members accuse spiritual teacher Mooji of running an abusive cult at his isolated ashram three hours from Lisbon, Portugal.
They allege sleeping with students, abuse such as screaming, shouting, shaming and humiliating, controlling behavior, pairing and breaking up couples, brainwashing and mind control, coercing people from leaving and more.
Mooji lives in a secluded hilltop gated area of the property with three young female disciples whom insiders say he is sleeping with. They also dress and undress him daily.
Mooji has cheated on his past three girlfriends with other students. One longterm female resident of the ashram who left claims to have had sex with Mooji the entire time she was there. There are other women too afraid to speak out.
Followers believe Mooji to be God and refer to him as “my Lord,” “my Master” and “my Father.” They regularly kiss his “holy” feet and bow to him.
Strange ceremonies and rituals including exorcism type events occur at the center.
Mooji has designated an isolation building for members who act out. They will be given one meal a day and learn to “know the self.”
Mooji and his team smuggled over €200,000 of unreported cash into Portugal from London and one member got caught. They used this to purchase Monte Sahaja.
Two members committed suicide in 2017, one at the ashram in Portugal and another in India.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by Iwannaplato »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:11 am Former members accuse spiritual teacher Mooji of running an abusive cult at his isolated ashram three hours from Lisbon, Portugal.
They allege sleeping with students, abuse such as screaming, shouting, shaming and humiliating, controlling behavior, pairing and breaking up couples, brainwashing and mind control, coercing people from leaving and more.
Mooji lives in a secluded hilltop gated area of the property with three young female disciples whom insiders say he is sleeping with. They also dress and undress him daily.
Mooji has cheated on his past three girlfriends with other students. One longterm female resident of the ashram who left claims to have had sex with Mooji the entire time she was there. There are other women too afraid to speak out.
Followers believe Mooji to be God and refer to him as “my Lord,” “my Master” and “my Father.” They regularly kiss his “holy” feet and bow to him.
Strange ceremonies and rituals including exorcism type events occur at the center.
Mooji has designated an isolation building for members who act out. They will be given one meal a day and learn to “know the self.”
Mooji and his team smuggled over €200,000 of unreported cash into Portugal from London and one member got caught. They used this to purchase Monte Sahaja.
Two members committed suicide in 2017, one at the ashram in Portugal and another in India.
and there are many, many other instances. Of course many gurus behave. But the same narcisstic patterns pervade the organizations and the interpersonal dynamics. And you can present yourself humbly and even believe yourself to be humble while shedding narcissism all over the place.

I have long found it interesting that two of the dominant metaphors in the guru type traditions are service and surrender.

A class based metaphor and a war based one.

Generally, if you point this out to an adherent, they will tell you that they mean surrender some toxic portion of yourself or serve God who is so great and all. But these ideas could be presented with other metaphors and what the hell does a deity need with servants?
seeds
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by seeds »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:43 am
roydop wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:45 pm No I am not. Ramana Maharshi is my Sat guru.
It's good that this is said right out. He has a guru. He is in a tradition where there are lineages from gurus to disciples. He calls some of his own videos satsangs with generally means a somewhat informal meeting with the guru for edification of disciples and others.
These traditions always have power dynamics, usually openly and implicitly.
People here notice the implicit power dynamic and point it out.
It is a defacto narcissistic power dynamic. It is built into the tradition and spreads like a meme that way, though also via non-verbal contagion. There is no guru who is not treated precisely as a narcissist wants to be treated by those who consider that person a guru and in the gurus self-relation.
In a thread I created years ago titled...

"Why the Ramana Maharshi model for humanity is flawed"

(viewtopic.php?p=408541#p408541)

...roydop and I had the following exchange:
seeds wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 2:42 am So let me get this straight.

In deference to Ramana, you personally think that the best thing that could ever happen to humanity is for everyone on the planet to...

1. Strip down to their underpants and assume the lotus position.

2. Eliminate all thought and sensations to the point of no longer being aware of their body.

3. Stay that way until the body dies from dehydration/starvation (just like Ramana would have presumably done had no one intervened to save him).
To which roydop replied to each point with the following...
roydop wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 2:34 pm 1. It doesn't matter what one wears or how they sit.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.
So, there you have roydop's brilliant plan for humanity.
_______
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Age wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:20 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:29 pm To the contrary, the meat of his post is something Sam Harris has explicitly said himself in multiple podcasts. Maybe not all of it, but particularly this bit:
B: Of those thoughts you will have no choice what the thoughts will be. They will enter your consciousness at random

If you are objective and relatively ego-free, you will come to the conclusion that you do not have control over your own mind.
I half thought he was quoting Sam Harris in bits of it.
Considering that a LOT of the words here 'you', human beings, have YET to come-to-KNOW what they ACTUALLY MEAN, there is NO wonder WHY to 'you' this appears as absolutely NONSENSE, or, 'you' are NOT YET ready AND able to EXPLAINED 'it' AT ALL.
You, YOU, human NOT YET you "you" you "APPEARS" nonsense NON SENSE you.

You know how some people vomit when they see someone else vomit? Your word vomit just made me word vomit. Go to the toilet next time and do it privately please, and brush your teeth.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6656
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by Iwannaplato »

seeds wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:03 pm
In a thread I created years ago titled...

"Why the Ramana Maharshi model for humanity is flawed"
Well, the good thing about Roydop is that he doesn't have the polish of some of the Eastern gurus.
Age
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Re: Experiment to show your state of delusion

Post by Age »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:26 pm
Age wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:20 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:29 pm To the contrary, the meat of his post is something Sam Harris has explicitly said himself in multiple podcasts. Maybe not all of it, but particularly this bit:



I half thought he was quoting Sam Harris in bits of it.
Considering that a LOT of the words here 'you', human beings, have YET to come-to-KNOW what they ACTUALLY MEAN, there is NO wonder WHY to 'you' this appears as absolutely NONSENSE, or, 'you' are NOT YET ready AND able to EXPLAINED 'it' AT ALL.
You, YOU, human NOT YET you "you" you "APPEARS" nonsense NON SENSE you.
I KNOW 'it' DOES, and even KNEW 'it' WOULD, to 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this is being written.

AND, 'this' is written, the way 'it' is, to SHOW and PROVE just HOW 'limited' 'you', human beings, REALLY WERE, back in 'those' days when this 'was' being written.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:26 pm You know how some people vomit when they see someone else vomit? Your word vomit just made me word vomit. Go to the toilet next time and do it privately please, and brush your teeth.
LOL

And here is ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of just HOW MUCH these adult human beings Truly did LACK ANY RESPONSIBILITY AT ALL, as well as ANY CURIOSITY AT ALL.

Which is what WAS ACTUALLY NEEDED for human beings to EVOLVE PROGRESSIVELY FORWARD.
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