What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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commonsense
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What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by commonsense »

What verbal behavior is there that will convince others that you are human?

You can say anything, e.g. “I am not an AI”, but just because you say it doesn’t make it so.

You can ask anything, but just because you’re inquisitive doesn’t mean you possess human curiosity.

Even if you post a link to a video of your physical behavior, it’s still possible that you have no mind of your own.

So, what can you say to assure others here that you are really human?
Walker
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by Walker »

- What verbal behavior is there that will convince yourself that you are human?
- If an Identity’s philosophizing consists of only counter-intuitive declarations, it may be Artificial.
- If you can only leave out the reasoning that leads from, leads to, or follows after counter-intuitive declarations, you may be Artificial and not know it.
Age
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by Age »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:32 am What verbal behavior is there that will convince others that you are human?

You can say anything, e.g. “I am not an AI”, but just because you say it doesn’t make it so.

You can ask anything, but just because you’re inquisitive doesn’t mean you possess human curiosity.

Even if you post a link to a video of your physical behavior, it’s still possible that you have no mind of your own.

So, what can you say to assure others here that you are really human?
1. 'you' are NOT just 'human' anyway.

2. 'you' will NEVER "have a mind of your own".

3. What, EXACTLY, possesses so-called 'human curiosity'?

4. ANY one can say; "I am (name just about ANY thing)", but this, by itself, does NOT make 'it' true NOR right.

5. To convince a 'human being' that 'you' are ANOTHER human being IS DONE by just coming to an AGREEMENT WITH and an ACCEPTANCE OF what a 'human being' IS, EXACTLY.

6. What 'I' can SAY, to SHOW, in this forum, that 'I' am, or 'you' are, NOT a so-called 'p-zombie' IS DONE by FIRST CLARIFYING with 'this forum' what a 'p-zombie' IS, EXACTLY.
Dimebag
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by Dimebag »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:32 am What verbal behavior is there that will convince others that you are human?

You can say anything, e.g. “I am not an AI”, but just because you say it doesn’t make it so.

You can ask anything, but just because you’re inquisitive doesn’t mean you possess human curiosity.

Even if you post a link to a video of your physical behavior, it’s still possible that you have no mind of your own.

So, what can you say to assure others here that you are really human?
This is essentially the Turing test. In normal human to human interaction, you don’t actually question whether the other person has internal experiences, it is taken for granted. Because there is uncertainty here, and there are possibilities that, due to technology and rather annoying “bots” which can at least very basically imitate a humans general ranting and raving, such a “bot” may under some circumstances, be confused for a human.

What we are looking at when you analyse interactions in text format is, the relevancy of the response, does it actually address anything in your initial post? Does the response seem “canned” or like a set response, or maybe a vague statement with little relevancy? Does the sentence make grammatical sense? In general conversation with other humans, you can begin to pick up, intuitively on the human like nuances of another mind behind the text. So, if you don’t feel that other mind behind there, if it seems like nothing you are saying is actually “getting through” to the respondent, then that might be an indication.

As far as what you can say to assure other humans that you are a mind, simply respond as you would normally. The longer you respond, the higher degree of certainty the other person can have that you are a conscious mind, responding in a knowing manner.
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RCSaunders
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by RCSaunders »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:32 am What verbal behavior is there that will convince others that you are human?

You can say anything, e.g. “I am not an AI”, but just because you say it doesn’t make it so.

You can ask anything, but just because you’re inquisitive doesn’t mean you possess human curiosity.

Even if you post a link to a video of your physical behavior, it’s still possible that you have no mind of your own.

So, what can you say to assure others here that you are really human?
Why would anything not human wish to convince anyone it is human?

If you see anything that claims human origin, however remote, it was a human who initiated it. Even if it's a machine saying it, a human had to program the machine to say it.

Nothing will ever accidentally say, "hey, I'm human."

To prove you are human you only have to say so. Nothing else ever will.
commonsense
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by commonsense »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:33 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:32 am What verbal behavior is there that will convince others that you are human?

You can say anything, e.g. “I am not an AI”, but just because you say it doesn’t make it so.

You can ask anything, but just because you’re inquisitive doesn’t mean you possess human curiosity.

Even if you post a link to a video of your physical behavior, it’s still possible that you have no mind of your own.

So, what can you say to assure others here that you are really human?
Why would anything not human wish to convince anyone it is human?

If you see anything that claims human origin, however remote, it was a human who initiated it. Even if it's a machine saying it, a human had to program the machine to say it.
I read into your post that anything not human would have no wish to convince anyone that it’s human. Accordingly, only things that are human would wish to convince anyone they’re human. So anyone who claims to be human obviously has a desire to convince others of his humanity.
Therefore anyone who claims to be human is human. Interesting premise.

And you go further, I think, when you suggest that a machine that has been programmed by a human is, after all, human(-based). This would mean that the machine would indeed want to convince others that it’s a human and would therefore be human. Interesting concept.
commonsense
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by commonsense »

Walker wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:15 am - What verbal behavior is there that will convince yourself that you are human?
- If an Identity’s philosophizing consists of only counter-intuitive declarations, it may be Artificial.
- If you can only leave out the reasoning that leads from, leads to, or follows after counter-intuitive declarations, you may be Artificial and not know it.
This is a stimulating idea. I assume I am human, but beyond that I never try to convince myself of it.

It is interesting also that your second and third bullets may apply to some contributors on this forum.
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RCSaunders
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by RCSaunders »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:50 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:33 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:32 am What verbal behavior is there that will convince others that you are human?

You can say anything, e.g. “I am not an AI”, but just because you say it doesn’t make it so.

You can ask anything, but just because you’re inquisitive doesn’t mean you possess human curiosity.

Even if you post a link to a video of your physical behavior, it’s still possible that you have no mind of your own.

So, what can you say to assure others here that you are really human?
Why would anything not human wish to convince anyone it is human?

If you see anything that claims human origin, however remote, it was a human who initiated it. Even if it's a machine saying it, a human had to program the machine to say it.
I read into your post that anything not human would have no wish to convince anyone that it’s human. Accordingly, only things that are human would wish to convince anyone they’re human. So anyone who claims to be human obviously has a desire to convince others of his humanity.
Therefore anyone who claims to be human is human. Interesting premise.

And you go further, I think, when you suggest that a machine that has been programmed by a human is, after all, human(-based). This would mean that the machine would indeed want to convince others that it’s a human and would therefore be human. Interesting concept.
That's right, except the programmed machine itself would not be the human. It is only an instrument being used by a human to say it's human, which would not happen without the human programmer. My point is, any claim to humanity would only ever occur at the behest of a human.
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bahman
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by bahman »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:32 am What verbal behavior is there that will convince others that you are human?

You can say anything, e.g. “I am not an AI”, but just because you say it doesn’t make it so.

You can ask anything, but just because you’re inquisitive doesn’t mean you possess human curiosity.

Even if you post a link to a video of your physical behavior, it’s still possible that you have no mind of your own.

So, what can you say to assure others here that you are really human?
You need a conscious mind for any motion. So there are at least two minds.
Walker
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by Walker »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:19 pm second and third bullets ...
Perish the thought. Think, acorns. Acorns to nurture, to grow, to flourish, rather than to be gobbled up by little troll squirrels, which like gray, red, and black squirrels, the three noticed nesting on the Stanford campus during a brief visit, may take them and bury them under a mound of pine needles fluffy as words, then forget them, leaving the strongest to just naturally figure things out and grow strong.
commonsense
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by commonsense »

Dimebag wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:28 pm
This is essentially the Turing test. In normal human to human interaction, you don’t actually question whether the other person has internal experiences, it is taken for granted. Because there is uncertainty here, and there are possibilities that, due to technology and rather annoying “bots” which can at least very basically imitate a humans general ranting and raving, such a “bot” may under some circumstances, be confused for a human.
As an aside, bots are permitted in this forum, however they are required to identify themselves as such. But do they all (ha!)?
Dimebag wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:28 pm
What we are looking at when you analyse interactions in text format is, the relevancy of the response, does it actually address anything in your initial post? Does the response seem “canned” or like a set response, or maybe a vague statement with little relevancy? Does the sentence make grammatical sense? In general conversation with other humans, you can begin to pick up, intuitively on the human like nuances of another mind behind the text. So, if you don’t feel that other mind behind there, if it seems like nothing you are saying is actually “getting through” to the respondent, then that might be an indication.
Yes, and indications are that some contributors on this forum may not have a mind.
Dimebag wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:28 pm
As far as what you can say to assure other humans that you are a mind, simply respond as you would normally. The longer you respond, the higher degree of certainty the other person can have that you are a conscious mind, responding in a knowing manner.
And, of course, I could also draw attention to the relevance of my responses and the appropriateness of my use of grammar, if I were so inclined as to believe it to be necessary for me to prove my humanness.
commonsense
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by commonsense »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:43 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:50 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:33 pm
Why would anything not human wish to convince anyone it is human?

If you see anything that claims human origin, however remote, it was a human who initiated it. Even if it's a machine saying it, a human had to program the machine to say it.
I read into your post that anything not human would have no wish to convince anyone that it’s human. Accordingly, only things that are human would wish to convince anyone they’re human. So anyone who claims to be human obviously has a desire to convince others of his humanity.
Therefore anyone who claims to be human is human. Interesting premise.

And you go further, I think, when you suggest that a machine that has been programmed by a human is, after all, human(-based). This would mean that the machine would indeed want to convince others that it’s a human and would therefore be human. Interesting concept.
That's right, except the programmed machine itself would not be the human. It is only an instrument being used by a human to say it's human, which would not happen without the human programmer. My point is, any claim to humanity would only ever occur at the behest of a human.
That sums the matter up nicely.
commonsense
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by commonsense »

Walker wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:48 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:19 pm second and third bullets ...
Perish the thought. Think, acorns. Acorns to nurture, to grow, to flourish, rather than to be gobbled up by little troll squirrels, which like gray, red, and black squirrels, the three noticed nesting on the Stanford campus during a brief visit, may take them and bury them under a mound of pine needles fluffy as words, then forget them, leaving the strongest to just naturally figure things out and grow strong.
lol
Flannel Jesus
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:32 am What verbal behavior is there that will convince others that you are human?

You can say anything, e.g. “I am not an AI”, but just because you say it doesn’t make it so.

You can ask anything, but just because you’re inquisitive doesn’t mean you possess human curiosity.

Even if you post a link to a video of your physical behavior, it’s still possible that you have no mind of your own.

So, what can you say to assure others here that you are really human?
I feel like this question misses the entire point of a philosophical zombie. If you believe philosophical zombies are possible, then ANY believable human behavior that you would expect from a fully conscious human being, you would also expect from a p-zombie. If you believe in the p-zombie proposition, there's literally no empirical way to distinguish between a p-zombie and a human.
commonsense
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Re: What can you say in this forum to show you’re not a P-Zombie?

Post by commonsense »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:11 am
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:32 am What verbal behavior is there that will convince others that you are human?

You can say anything, e.g. “I am not an AI”, but just because you say it doesn’t make it so.

You can ask anything, but just because you’re inquisitive doesn’t mean you possess human curiosity.

Even if you post a link to a video of your physical behavior, it’s still possible that you have no mind of your own.

So, what can you say to assure others here that you are really human?
I feel like this question misses the entire point of a philosophical zombie. If you believe philosophical zombies are possible, then ANY believable human behavior that you would expect from a fully conscious human being, you would also expect from a p-zombie. If you believe in the p-zombie proposition, there's literally no empirical way to distinguish between a p-zombie and a human.
Yes, that was my point.
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