Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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henry quirk
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Post by henry quirk »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:23 am
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:40 am All "conscious" experience involves the following:

(1) A physical organ, namely the brain that originates and is minimally necessary for this phenomena. "Physical organ", as a more general term will be used if comparing these effects to other things, like possibly the heart or some computer. I will use "brain" here more specifically here as minimal but reserve the general term, "physical organ" or "organ" IF we discuss whether this phenemona goes beyond our own brain.

So, do you "agree" so far?
I don't know how we could know this. Consciousness may exist where there are different or less functions that brains offer. IOW an awareness without the skills to communicate (or we lack the ability to listen and consider).
Yep. If Scott had stuck around I woulda talked a bit on hemispherectomies (surgeries where significant portions of the brain are excised). A startling fact: even with an entire hemisphere removed, a person is still the same. There's no reduction in intellectual capacity, no change in personality, no loss of memory.

As I say: it appears the brain is necessary for consciousness (self-consciousness, mind) but the brain, all on its lonesome, may not be the origin or source of consciousness (self-consciousness, mind).

And, yeah, I'm talkin' about substance dualism.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Post by Iwannaplato »

I am not even sure we need substance dualism, not that I am closed to that. Consciousness could be a fact of matter, all matter. Certain collections of matter placed in complicated interactions might lead to functions within consciousness, like memory, say.

And then beyond what you wrote about brains, plants, with nervous systems, seem to show reactions to pain and other nervous system-like reactions and patterns.
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henry quirk
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Post by henry quirk »

Here's the thing, plato: when we talk of human consciousness, we're not simply talkin' about the openness to experience you find in, say, a lizard or Roomba.

Human consciousness includes consciousness of self, identity, intention, self-reflection, a bent for the abstract, etc.

In short: human consciousness is synonymous with mind which lizards and Roombas don't have.

Plain old consciousness, bein' simply open to experience, fundamentally seems mechanical, but mind seems to fall outside strict biological mechanistry.

It does not seem to me that matter, in any combination, no matter how complex the arrangement, causes mind.

That mind can be unaffected by sumthin' as radical as a hemispherectomy supports the idea of mind as linked or anchored to the brain, but not sourced in the brain.
trokanmariel
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

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I have a lego brain. It is a physics idea. I mean this in the sense of endowment.
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henry quirk
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

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trokanmariel wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:55 am I have a lego brain. It is a physics idea. I mean this in the sense of endowment.
I really wanna crack the puzzle of you, trok. Veg sez you're a bot. I don't think you are. But, damn, you are a puzzle.

A lego brain: a kludge?
trokanmariel
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Post by trokanmariel »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 12:01 pm
trokanmariel wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:55 am I have a lego brain. It is a physics idea. I mean this in the sense of endowment.
I really wanna crack the puzzle of you, trok. Veg sez you're a bot. I don't think you are. But, damn, you are a puzzle.

A lego brain: a kludge?

Thanks for the reply.
I'm the daylight person. Is one way of putting it.
What I'm troubled by, is reality having to regret its own version of possession. And daylight being a safety is an example of this.

I'm surrounded by a community that can't confirm its status, or its identity. I suspect, the reason for this is that it's to do with non-living supremacy over living

What is non-living potential, in your opinion?

In my opinion, it's the absence of magic.
jayjacobus
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Post by jayjacobus »

Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:40 am I am going to attempt to explain what this with clarity but need to begin in steps that hopefully involve others willing to participate and 'agree' (or 'disagree') to some minimal facts regarding the description of the phenomena.

All "conscious" experience involves the following:

(1) A physical organ, namely the brain that originates and is minimally necessary for this phenomena. "Physical organ", as a more general term will be used if comparing these effects to other things, like possibly the heart or some computer. I will use "brain" here more specifically here as minimal but reserve the general term, "physical organ" or "organ" IF we discuss whether this phenemona goes beyond our own brain.

(2) Discrete atomic (cellular) structures, of which the core units of control are called "neurons", and includes any and all necessary supporting substructures that coincide with EACH cell. This description is only meant to safely describe the nature of the brain to require discrete units in which the collection of these make up the structural foundation of the brain that causes consciousness. This will also be helpful to reference 'atomic units' for other beings that we may possibly determine is or is not 'conscious'. I will use 'neurons' to substitute for these units that include the supporting organelles. The more general term, "atomic units" can be used where it describes the same effects elsewhere but may be controversial to assume as 'conscious' by default. I will be using things like "CPU" as an analogy at times and this would be referred to as an 'atomic unit' in just such a generic way. But it does not require meaning that CPUs are actually 'conscious' unless we could somehow prove or disprovce that later.

(3) The phenomena of consciousness is not the ONLY function of the same structure. It is only one STATE of two or more states of the brain or its neurons. This means that we are not always conscious, such as being asleep, or that we have degrees of awareness in which we are more or less aware of being conscious at different times. This is important to differentiate between other organs that may be understood as having states that are strictly always 'on' or 'off'. This may be unnecessary for conscious states to exist in other things but is minimally essential for clarifying our human idea of experiencing consciousness as opposed to whether a computer may be 'conscious' like we are. All we at least could agree to minimally is that we have consciousness but cannot 'feel' others things, including other humans NORMALLY. If we DO, we need 'proof' that is relative to our own conscious states and or to any extended rationale that is logically valid and sound to our independent minds to conceive.

(4) The sensation of consciousness as one is made up of multiple sensations sensed apparently simultaneously. This feature of consciousness is what makes it seem so confusing when for all other things in life, we do not. To help describe this, we have two words from quantum mechanics that is useful. You don't have to agree to the particular quantum mechanics theories to agree to these. The first of the two is "superposition", which means that multiple events occur at the same PLACE or 'position' at the same TIME; the second is "entanglement", which means that things in distinctly different PLACES feels or appears simultaeously in TIME. Both are apparent by differnt perspectives. If we are interpreting conscious as 'one' thing in one particular location, then the input senses are in a 'superposition' of that one place; if we are interpreting multiple distinct places, like two or more distinct atomic units (neurons) as being felt at the same time, this is an 'entanglement' of different places, and thus, distinct things in these different places are felt as though it were one thing. Since we are just describing this phenomena for now, both are relevant descriptors even though maybe only one or neither of them may be possibly true.

Before going on, I need to determine if anyone else here agrees to these minimal facts. If I don't get common agreement, I don't have much further use for being here at all and so need this to decide whether I will invest beyond this opening statement, and likely this site altogether.

So, do you "agree" so far?
The body is physical. The mind is an embodied spirit. But it is not knowable until the mind can connect to the spirit world. If there is no spiritual world, than the mind can be anywhere. The brain is not the only possibility.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Post by Iwannaplato »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:39 am Here's the thing, plato: when we talk of human consciousness, we're not simply talkin' about the openness to experience you find in, say, a lizard or Roomba.

Human consciousness includes consciousness of self, identity, intention, self-reflection, a bent for the abstract, etc.
I think that it's a good idea to separate cognitive functions from the quality of being aware. Consciousness often gets muddled by sometimes meaning experiencing, having subjective experience, and other times meaning specific processes or types of awareness. I think these are different 'things'.
In short: human consciousness is synonymous with mind which lizards and Roombas don't have.
I certainly think we are different from them.
Plain old consciousness, bein' simply open to experience, fundamentally seems mechanical, but mind seems to fall outside strict biological mechanistry.

It does not seem to me that matter, in any combination, no matter how complex the arrangement, causes mind.
I guess I think that consciousness is a facet of matter - though I think the word matter has metaphysical baggage that generally is not looked at. It used to mean rocks and chairs and hard stuff and now includes fields and massless particles and particles in superposition and waves and potential stuff.
That mind can be unaffected by sumthin' as radical as a hemispherectomy supports the idea of mind as linked or anchored to the brain, but not sourced in the brain.
OK.
Walker
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Post by Walker »

Age wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:20 am
'consciousness' is just being aware.

'Consciousness' is just Being AWARE of ALL 'things', including Being AWARE of 'Who 'I' am, EXACTLY'.
Consciousness is Consciousness. Awareness is Awareness.

Consciousness is the interface linking awareness to mind, resulting in apprehension, leading to comprehension, leading to understanding ... but not always.
Age
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Post by Age »

Walker wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:31 am
Age wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:20 am
'consciousness' is just being aware.

'Consciousness' is just Being AWARE of ALL 'things', including Being AWARE of 'Who 'I' am, EXACTLY'.
Consciousness is Consciousness. Awareness is Awareness.

Consciousness is the interface linking awareness to mind, resulting in apprehension, leading to comprehension, leading to understanding ... but not always.
AND, for AN EXAMPLE of NOT 'leading to understanding always' what is this 'mind' thing, EXACTLY, which you speak of here?

Also, what is 'Consciousness', EXACTLY?
Walker
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Post by Walker »

Age wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:33 am
Walker wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:31 am
Age wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:20 am
'consciousness' is just being aware.

'Consciousness' is just Being AWARE of ALL 'things', including Being AWARE of 'Who 'I' am, EXACTLY'.
Consciousness is Consciousness. Awareness is Awareness.

Consciousness is the interface linking awareness to mind, resulting in apprehension, leading to comprehension, leading to understanding ... but not always.
AND, for AN EXAMPLE of NOT 'leading to understanding always' what is this 'mind' thing, EXACTLY, which you speak of here?

Also, what is 'Consciousness', EXACTLY?
'mind' is 'mind'. 'Consciousness' is 'Consciousness'. EXACTLY.
Age
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Post by Age »

Walker wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:48 am
Age wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:33 am
Walker wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:31 am
Consciousness is Consciousness. Awareness is Awareness.

Consciousness is the interface linking awareness to mind, resulting in apprehension, leading to comprehension, leading to understanding ... but not always.
AND, for AN EXAMPLE of NOT 'leading to understanding always' what is this 'mind' thing, EXACTLY, which you speak of here?

Also, what is 'Consciousness', EXACTLY?
'mind' is 'mind'. 'Consciousness' is 'Consciousness'. EXACTLY.
In other words, 'you', "walker", have NO ACTUAL IDEA NOR CLUE, correct?
Walker
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Post by Walker »

Age wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:59 am
Walker wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:48 am
Age wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:33 am

AND, for AN EXAMPLE of NOT 'leading to understanding always' what is this 'mind' thing, EXACTLY, which you speak of here?

Also, what is 'Consciousness', EXACTLY?
'mind' is 'mind'. 'Consciousness' is 'Consciousness'. EXACTLY.
In other words, 'you', "walker", have NO ACTUAL IDEA NOR CLUE, correct?
That is an illogical conclusion based on the exact response that you requested.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Post by Iwannaplato »

Walker wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:29 am That is an illogical conclusion based on the exact response that you requested.
One could argue that is what he requested or one could go by what one knows he wanted which was likely a useful definition using words other than the word being defined.
Walker
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Re: Consciousness....a careful step by step analysis....

Post by Walker »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:40 am
Walker wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:29 am That is an illogical conclusion based on the exact response that you requested.
One could argue that is what he requested or one could go by what one knows he wanted which was likely a useful definition using words other than the word being defined.
Maybe. Maybe instead of getting what he wanted, he got what he needs.
... a useful definition using words other than the word being defined.
Why don't you give it a go and see how much he wants it.

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