Philosophy of whales and dolphins

[theory]

From both a genetic and physiological perspective, the brain neurons of whales are very similar to that of a human and whales have a 6x larger brain than humans.



When it concerns the question: what makes a whale brain different from that of a human? (why is a human more intelligent), the answer of science has been "cortical neurons" (grey matter).

More specifically, higher intelligence has been associated with larger cortical grey matter in the prefrontal and posterior temporal cortex in adults (cortical neurons).

A study in 2019 showed that killer whales have more cortical neurons than humans, and that they have them for millions of years longer, with more advanced brain structures as a result. This was only discovered recently. Before a few years ago, it was not known that whales also have those neurons.

The killer whale has more gray matter and more cortical neurons than any mammal, including humans.

Humpbacks have humanlike brain cells (spindle cortical neurons)
Humpback whales and killer whales have a type of brain cell seen only in humans, researchers reported on Monday.
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna15920224

Whales boast the brain cells that 'make us human'
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... -us-human/

Are whales deep thinkers?

Whale and dolphin brains contain specialized brain cells called spindle neurons. These are associated with advanced abilities such as recognising, remembering, reasoning, communicating, perceiving, adapting to change, problem-solving and understanding. So it seems they are deep thinkers! Not only that, but the part of their brain which processes emotions (limbic system) appears to be more complex than our own.

At question would be: when it concerns the 'mind' for the use of science or philosophy, can it be said that whales and dolphins are incapable? If so, can that be made evident based on knowledge of the human brain or would it be a mere cultural / upraising barrier?

Feral children may provide a clue. The conclusion from research has been that socialization and culture are an important factor for 'humanity', the foundation for intelligence as seen from humanity's perspective (which would exclude potential advanced, deep and complex dreams and correlated thoughts that a feral child may have, which similarly may exist in whales and dolphins).

The Feral Child: Blurring the Boundary between the Human and the Animal
the process of becoming human and therefore being identified as human, is taught through socialization and culture.
Source: Animals and Society: human animal studies

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Understanding whale language

An attempt to learn whale language has been initiated in April 2021 and it was noted that it requires philosophy, which may explain why a serious effort to understand whales and dolphins was never made until now.

Project CETI (Cetacean Translation Initiative) dates from 2017 from scientists who intended to dive into the subject, and apparently needed to start from scratch.

(2021) Groundbreaking effort launched to decode whale language
If humans were ever to decode the language of whales, or even determine if whales possessed something we might truly call language, we’d need to pair their clicks with the context, which would entail a challenging inter-specie philosophical endeavor.

‘They sound like Morse code’

The project CETI (Cetacean Translation Initiative) started with a marine biologist. In 2017, while a fellow at Harvard University’s Radcliffe Institute, Gruber, a diver, became fascinated with after reading a book about free divers who study them. One day while listening to whale codas on his laptop, another Radcliffe fellow, Shafi Goldwasser, happened by.

“‘Those are really interesting—they sound like Morse code,’” Gruber recalls Goldwasser saying.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... -of-whales

Philosopher John Lilly founded the Communication Research Institute in the late 1950's and published research suggesting that his attempts to talk to dolphins were working.



"The feeling of weirdness came on us as the sounds of this small whale seemed more and more to be forming words in our own human language. We felt we were in the presence of Something, or Someone who was on the other side of the transparent barrier" ~ philosopher John C. Lilly

https://www.johnclilly.com/

The following website, founded in 2016, provides an overview of the latest whale and dolphin science which again indicates that major initiatives to understand them are fairly new.



https://whalescientists.com/

(2021) What do we know about intelligence in whales and dolphins?
"Could whales be as smart, if not smarter, than humans?

Cetacean brains are surprisingly similar to our own. Orcas, for example, show cerebral folding that is more impressive than in humans. This helps them process more information at remarkable speeds. Moreover, this particular species presents the most complex insular cortex in the world. This part of the brain is involved in consciousness and self-awareness as well as processing emotions such as empathy and compassion. "
https://whalescientists.com/intelligenc ... -dolphins/

In the following article on dolphin intelligence and the future of philosophy, it is suggested that the ultimate state of being for life forms is to become something like a whale.

(2021) Dolphin intelligence and the future of philosophy
We don’t see evidence of supercivilisations across the galaxy because the only ones that persist are the ones that give up the risky path of technology and instead pursue immersion in nature.

Ageing civilisations either self-destruct or shift to become something like a whale. The Russian astrophysicist Vladimir M Lipunov speculated that, across the Universe, the scientific mindset recurrently evolves, discovers all there is to know and, having exhausted its compelling curiosity, proceeds to wither away and become something like a whale.

By 1978, the philosophers Arkadiy Ursul and Yuri Shkolenko wrote of such conjectures – concerning the ‘possible rejection in the future of the “technological way” of development’ – and reflected that this would be tantamount to humanity’s ‘transformation into something like dolphins’.
https://aeon.co/essays/dolphin-intellig ... mic-future

--

Considering the potential that whales and dolphins have a physiological capacity that could allow them to be more intelligent than humans, it may be important that the human is able to recognize and understand their intelligence if they ever hope to discover, appropriately recognize and understand extraterrestrial life.

1) if whales have a language that is more complex than that of humans, how could humans possibly learn to understand it?
2) are there philosophers that dedicate to whales and dolphins today?
3) what purpose could advanced brain technology serve for a life as a whale or dolphin?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Fascinating but also depressing. To think we murder these astonishing beings.

[Sculptor]

There is no doubt that their intelligence is far beyond ours and we will never be able to grasp what they are singing about

Murdering them to near extinction is a crime.

But not only have we committed this crime, the frequencies of motorised ships and submarines acts to make them deaf to the long range songs of their kin.

[Lacewing]

Amazing beings.

Non-human frequencies and forms are not subordinate to the human frequency and form -- rather, they are other ways of channeling life and intelligence.

[theory]

There is no doubt that their intelligence is far beyond ours and we will never be able to grasp what they are singing about

Why? Has it ever been attempted? If philosophy would be required, has it been up to the task in the past 100 years?

Murdering them to near extinction is a crime.

But not only have we committed this crime, the frequencies of motorised ships and submarines acts to make them deaf to the long range songs of their kin.

Is there evidence that whale language is disturbed by motorised ships?

[theory]

Humpback whales have been found to save other animals including fish from attacking orcas and sharks. Whale experts believe that the motive is altruistic behaviour or empathy.



Why Do Humpback Whales Protect Other Animals?
Humpbacks are capable of sophisticated thinking, decision-making, problem-solving, and communication, says Marino, the executive director of the Kimmela Center for Animal Advocacy.

... these attributes are those of a species with a highly developed degree of general intelligence capable of empathic responses.”
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... -explained

Recently a woman was saved from a shark by a Humpback whale:

Marine biologist: Humpback whale saved me from a shark
He kept putting his eye right next to me and I couldn’t figure out what he was trying to tell me. He eventually pushed me up right out of the water on his fin and then I noticed a shark closeby and the whale was doing what it could to keep the shark away from me.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-42630468

Never in history has a wild Orca attacked a human. Not even in folklore and old tales.

Since Orca's hunt for seals, it is remarkable that they never made a mistake just once. Not even in old stories.

There are reports that Orca's have saved people from drowning and from sharks at open sea. In old stories by sailors and more recent. The survivors also describe a special connection, as if 'communication took place' between the human and the Orca.

Orcas protected humans from sharks and saved drowning people at open sea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ZkkHesyjg

[vegetariantaxidermy]

And they never knowingly hurt humans which is astonishing in itself. We are vile to them and they must be aware of this. It's as if harming humans is deeply 'taboo' to cetaceans (or perhaps they just pity us).

[RCSaunders]

Humpback whales have been found to save other animals including fish ....

Some people will believe just any fairy tale. The Humpback whales' diet consists of squid, krill, herring, pollock, haddock, mackerel, capelin, salmon, sand lance, and many other fish which they eat by the ton. Their whole summers consist of rounding up fish for their daily fish slaughters.

Human beings save animals too, like cattle, chickens, and pigs, just like whales, so they can have them later to eat. There's nothing altruistic about it.

The reason whales' seem to, "save," some fish or animals, according to the last book I read by a baleen whale is .... Oh wait! Whales don't write books, or read them, do they? And they don't record anything in any other way. They just make some weird sounds that some idiots confuse with language. Bah! The curse of Disney and Dr. Dolittle.

[Impenitent]

-Imp

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Humpback whales have been found to save other animals including fish ....

Some people will believe just any fairy tale. The Humpback whales' diet consists of squid, krill, herring, pollock, haddock, mackerel, capelin, salmon, sand lance, and many other fish which they eat by the ton. Their whole summers consist of rounding up fish for their daily fish slaughters.

Human beings save animals too, like cattle, chickens, and pigs, just like whales, so they can have them later to eat. There's nothing altruistic about it.

The reason whales' seem to, "save," some fish or animals, according to the last book I read by a baleen whale is .... Oh wait! Whales don't write books, or read them, do they? And they don't record anything in any other way. They just make some weird sounds that some idiots confuse with language. Bah! The curse of Disney and Dr. Dolittle.

You are such a shallow fuckwit. Of course they have to fucking eat. And you might like to change your avatar. It gives a false impression that you actually have a clue about anything. What do you have to do with panthers?

[Age]

Fascinating but also depressing. To think we murder these astonishing beings.

'we' also murder EVERY other living being, including human beings/"ourselves".

[Age]

There is no doubt that their intelligence is far beyond ours and we will never be able to grasp what they are singing about

When, and if, what the word 'intelligence' means and refers to, which fits in PERFECTLY with EVERY thing else, then just how absurd this statement is, will become CRYSTAL CLEAR.

Murdering them to near extinction is a crime.

Is murdering other animals to near, or even TO EXTINCTION, not a crime?

I thought it would have already been EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that murdering ANY animal, to ANY degree, unnecessarily, is just plain Wrong, and did NOT need to be written down in law to be seen as "a crime".

But not only have we committed this crime, the frequencies of motorised ships and submarines acts to make them deaf to the long range songs of their kin.

What about EVERY other fish and mammal in the rivers, lakes, and oceans?

[Age]

There is no doubt that their intelligence is far beyond ours and we will never be able to grasp what they are singing about

Why? Has it ever been attempted? If philosophy would be required, has it been up to the task in the past 100 years?

What does the word 'philosophy' mean and refer to, to you?

Murdering them to near extinction is a crime.

But not only have we committed this crime, the frequencies of motorised ships and submarines acts to make them deaf to the long range songs of their kin.

Is there evidence that whale language is disturbed by motorised ships?

Does motorized noise disturb your, human, language?

If yes, then WHY would it be any different to and for other mammals?

But if motorized noise, supposedly, does not disturb your language, then just increase the length and/or volume of that noise and then see how long until it does ACTUALLY disturb your language.

This may not be PROOF that whale language is disturbed by motorized ships but it clearly is EVIDENCE. If you need ACTUAL PROOF, then just do an experiment like putting a motor between 'you' and "another" human being, turn the motor on, and just see what happens when communicating with "them".

[Age]

And they never knowingly hurt humans which is astonishing in itself. We are vile to them and they must be aware of this.

WHY are 'you' vile to whales?

It's as if harming humans is deeply 'taboo' to cetaceans (or perhaps they just pity us).

Well human beings can be, and are, the most STUPIDEST animal of ALL species.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

And they never knowingly hurt humans which is astonishing in itself. We are vile to them and they must be aware of this.

WHY are 'you' vile to whales?

It's as if harming humans is deeply 'taboo' to cetaceans (or perhaps they just pity us).

Well human beings can be, and are, the most STUPIDEST animal of ALL species.

I get your point. If I said 'humans' then I would get accused of separating myself from the rest of humanity. I'm still human, and have to at least take partial responsibility for the disgustingness of humanity.