My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

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K1Barin
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My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

Post by K1Barin »

My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

I believe choices exist and we know choices should not happen based on cause and effect. There may be causes for making a decision (choice), but at some point the final piece of choice should come from inside of the body that is making the choice and should not be caused by anything other than that body. Choice should be inner to body or it is not choice. Then if choice exists, something inside the body happens that is not caused by anything.

Making a decision consumes energy, and consuming energy needs causality. All the causes of the choice that one makes would provide the energy for their part, but for that bit of the choice that is not causal, something should pop out of that body that was not in there before. In other words some energy should get created from asserting the intension of making choice.

This might have sounded unscientific, and presently science believes in it being all cause and effect. Therefore they claim that nothing gets dissipated and nothing gets created; everything changes from one form to the other, and the total amount of energy and matter does not change.

Total amount of matter and energy may not decrease as lab observations have shown, but there are actual observations that show that the total amount of matter and energy are increasing. The phenomena is called dark energy and dark matter. The observations by telescopes show that the galaxies are moving apart from each other with positive acceleration; whereas according to big bang theory, the galaxies should move apart with negative acceleration which all has happened after initial big bang explosion. This positive acceleration indicates that the amount of energy is increasing in the cosmos after big bang which the scientists have not found a solid reason for it yet.

I am not claiming that I have a proof that energy that is getting generated from making choices by all the beings of matter that have choice, is the source of the dark energy. But if we have logical proof for existence of choice, there should be an increase in the amount of the energy in the cosmos like dark energy. And there is a persistent increase in the amount of the energy in the cosmos for unknown reasons. Then one can say the relation between these two phenomena may be the explanation for each other. Dark energy is being generated by making choices, and choices can exist because there is increasing energy in the universe. Which means a bit of energy is getting created every time a being of matter makes a choice.

After all there may be live beings of energy too that make choices in their own way, and that is the source of the generation of the dark matter.

Anyway, look at the bright side of it. Maybe the cosmos is expanding and extending and in other words growing exponentially forever as opposed to belief of some scientists that the universe is going to implode and seize to exist some time. Some scientists even estimate the end of universe in tens of trillions of years which is actually much much much shorter time than forever.

When there is choice, there is evolution, and by exponential growth of the universe, there is space and time for the exponential evolution of the universe forever too. And these evolving beings maybe in different forms to beings in our familiar evolution.

And I am not going to dissipate and am going to exist in one form or the other at your service making choices forever in this evolving universe.
Age
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Re: My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

Post by Age »

K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

I believe choices exist and we know choices should not happen based on cause and effect. There may be causes for making a decision (choice), but at some point the final piece of choice should come from inside of the body that is making the choice and should not be caused by anything other than that body. Choice should be inner to body or it is not choice. Then if choice exists, something inside the body happens that is not caused by anything.
This does not logically follow. As EVERY thing is because of cause and effect, including 'choices', themselves. But this does NOT mean that choices are not freely chosen. That is; there is NOTHING that forces Me to 'choose'. 'I' decide when to make a 'choice'. BUT, the list of 'choices', I can choose from, is limited.
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm Making a decision consumes energy, and consuming energy needs causality. All the causes of the choice that one makes would provide the energy for their part, but for that bit of the choice that is not causal, something should pop out of that body that was not in there before. In other words some energy should get created from asserting the intension of making choice.
WHY 'should' ANY thing "pop of that body" was not in there before?

And, HOW could ANY thing 'pop' out of a body, which was not in there before?
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm This might have sounded unscientific, and presently science believes in it being all cause and effect. Therefore they claim that nothing gets dissipated and nothing gets created; everything changes from one form to the other, and the total amount of energy and matter does not change.
Okay.
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm Total amount of matter and energy may not decrease as lab observations have shown, but there are actual observations that show that the total amount of matter and energy are increasing.
Actual observations "show" that the sun rises, and sets, and revolves around the earth, but not what all is "shown" is actually True, Right, nor Correct.
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm The phenomena is called dark energy and dark matter.
Are these those 'things', which human beings do NOT even know what they are, and which are just ASSUME to exist by just SOME human beings?

Also, let us not forget that SOME human beings claim that the amount of matter and/or energy is decreasing. But, a LOT of human beings do claim things, which they have NO actual PROOF for.
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm The observations by telescopes show that the galaxies are moving apart from each other with positive acceleration; whereas according to big bang theory, the galaxies should move apart with negative acceleration which all has happened after initial big bang explosion.
Let us also not forget that a LOT of observations, and explanations, were, and still are in the days when this is being written, just plain absurd and/or False, Wrong, or Incorrect.

Also, observations are NOT made 'by' telescopes.

'Observations' are just what is seen, by 'you', human beings, which can be, and are, interpreted Wrongly, sometimes.
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm This positive acceleration indicates that the amount of energy is increasing in the cosmos after big bang which the scientists have not found a solid reason for it yet.
Some "scientists", in the days when this was written, still BELIEVED, laughably, that thee Universe began at/with a "big bang", but 'interpretations', themselves, are NOT necessarily even close to be correct, let alone correct, let alone having "solid reasons for them".

The positive, like the negative, acceleration interpretations are nothing more than just ASSUMPTIONS, which BOTH could be completely and utterly Wrong and incorrect.
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm I am not claiming that I have a proof that energy that is getting generated from making choices by all the beings of matter that have choice, is the source of the dark energy. But if we have logical proof for existence of choice, there should be an increase in the amount of the energy in the cosmos like dark energy.
You are going to HAVE TO provide FAR MORE information for this to logically follow. And, you will NEED ACTUAL PROOF if you would like this idea/interpretation accepted and agreed with.
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm And there is a persistent increase in the amount of the energy in the cosmos for unknown reasons.
What PROOF is there that there is a "persistent increase in the amount of the energy in the cosmos"?

Once you have provided 'that', then we can look at and discuss the reasons for 'that'.
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm Then one can say the relation between these two phenomena may be the explanation for each other. Dark energy is being generated by making choices, and choices can exist because there is increasing energy in the universe.
Are you suggesting/claiming here that choices can exist because there is increasing 'energy' or because there is increasing 'dark energy', in the Universe?
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm Which means a bit of energy is getting created every time a being of matter makes a choice.
'Cause and effect', itself, would conclude and proof that it would be self-refuting or contradict its self that energy is needed for choices to be made but it is choices that creates energy. If this was true, then which came first, and how?
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm After all there may be live beings of energy too that make choices in their own way, and that is the source of the generation of the dark matter.
Many things COULD BE true, but that is NO WAY means or infers that they are true.

Do you have ANY ACTUAL PROOF for what you just said/claimed here?

If yes, then great where and what is that 'PROOF'?

But if no, then WHY say/claim it, in the beginning?
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm Anyway, look at the bright side of it. Maybe the cosmos is expanding and extending and in other words growing exponentially forever as opposed to belief of some scientists that the universe is going to implode and seize to exist some time.
WHY NOT just LOOK AT what IS JUST ACTUALLY True, instead?
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm Some scientists even estimate the end of universe in tens of trillions of years which is actually much much much shorter time than forever.
Can ANY 'fixed length' of 'time' Truly be measured in 'relative terms' to each other, when compared to the concept of 'forever'?

Trillions of years is, obviously, longer than billions of years, but, really, is either "much" shorter than 'forever'? Both ARE 'just' shorter than 'forever'.
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm When there is choice, there is evolution, and by exponential growth of the universe, there is space and time for the exponential evolution of the universe forever too. And these evolving beings maybe in different forms to beings in our familiar evolution.
What is "our familiar evolution", EXACTLY?
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm And I am not going to dissipate and am going to exist in one form or the other at your service making choices forever in this evolving universe.
WHY NOT?

'I' may well choose 'you' MUST. Then what could 'you' do?
Scott Mayers
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:53 am

Re: My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

Post by Scott Mayers »

K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

I believe choices exist and we know choices should not happen based on cause and effect. There may be causes for making a decision (choice), but at some point the final piece of choice should come from inside of the body that is making the choice and should not be caused by anything other than that body. Choice should be inner to body or it is not choice. Then if choice exists, something inside the body happens that is not caused by anything.

Making a decision consumes energy, and consuming energy needs causality. All the causes of the choice that one makes would provide the energy for their part, but for that bit of the choice that is not causal, something should pop out of that body that was not in there before. In other words some energy should get created from asserting the intension of making choice.

This might have sounded unscientific, and presently science believes in it being all cause and effect. Therefore they claim that nothing gets dissipated and nothing gets created; everything changes from one form to the other, and the total amount of energy and matter does not change.

Total amount of matter and energy may not decrease as lab observations have shown, but there are actual observations that show that the total amount of matter and energy are increasing. The phenomena is called dark energy and dark matter. The observations by telescopes show that the galaxies are moving apart from each other with positive acceleration; whereas according to big bang theory, the galaxies should move apart with negative acceleration which all has happened after initial big bang explosion. This positive acceleration indicates that the amount of energy is increasing in the cosmos after big bang which the scientists have not found a solid reason for it yet.

I am not claiming that I have a proof that energy that is getting generated from making choices by all the beings of matter that have choice, is the source of the dark energy. But if we have logical proof for existence of choice, there should be an increase in the amount of the energy in the cosmos like dark energy. And there is a persistent increase in the amount of the energy in the cosmos for unknown reasons. Then one can say the relation between these two phenomena may be the explanation for each other. Dark energy is being generated by making choices, and choices can exist because there is increasing energy in the universe. Which means a bit of energy is getting created every time a being of matter makes a choice.

After all there may be live beings of energy too that make choices in their own way, and that is the source of the generation of the dark matter.

Anyway, look at the bright side of it. Maybe the cosmos is expanding and extending and in other words growing exponentially forever as opposed to belief of some scientists that the universe is going to implode and seize to exist some time. Some scientists even estimate the end of universe in tens of trillions of years which is actually much much much shorter time than forever.

When there is choice, there is evolution, and by exponential growth of the universe, there is space and time for the exponential evolution of the universe forever too. And these evolving beings maybe in different forms to beings in our familiar evolution.

And I am not going to dissipate and am going to exist in one form or the other at your service making choices forever in this evolving universe.
You seem motivated to seek a reason that human choices are non-deterministic and possibly from some external unnamed source. But considering what I mentioned in your thread initiating discussion on determinism, I mentioned quantum mechanics. The likely reality is that the world is split where options actually exist (See "Many Worlds Interpretation (of Quantum Mechanics)").

I take this view. Have you ever tried to follow this? I can find links to youTube videos that expand upon this if you'd like. I can add my own thought experiments that show why this is the case based only on what anyone can know locally.
Scott Mayers
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Re: My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

Post by Scott Mayers »

Scott Mayers wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:59 am
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

...
You seem motivated to seek a reason that human choices are non-deterministic and possibly from some external unnamed source. But considering what I mentioned in your thread initiating discussion on determinism, I mentioned quantum mechanics. The likely reality is that the world is split where options actually exist (See "Many Worlds Interpretation (of Quantum Mechanics)").

I take this view. Have you ever tried to follow this? I can find links to youTube videos that expand upon this if you'd like. I can add my own thought experiments that show why this is the case based only on what anyone can know locally.
By the way, I do not get your assumed conclusion in your intro paragraph, ...
"Then if choice exists, something inside the body happens that is not caused by anything."
,
Walker
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Re: My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

Post by Walker »

K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices
How do you define choice?

Action, or purposeful inaction, defines choice. Mental activity is what most folks call choice, however, mentally determining what the future action or inaction should be, is properly called speculation, not choice.

Action also defines intent. Folks are sometimes surprised to discover their actual intent revealed by their actions, and how this actual intent differs from the fantasized intent.
K1Barin
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Re: My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

Post by K1Barin »

Do you have ANY ACTUAL PROOF for what you just said/claimed here?

If yes, then great where and what is that 'PROOF'?

But if no, then WHY say/claim it, in the beginning?
Any thing that one says does not need a proof. What I suggested was a theory that was not suggested yet. At times some theories find proof. Who knows.
Age
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Re: My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

Post by Age »

Walker wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:40 pm
K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices
How do you define choice?

Action, or purposeful inaction, defines choice. Mental activity is what most folks call choice, however, mentally determining what the future action or inaction should be, is properly called speculation, not choice.
Most people I know call 'mental activity', mental activity, and, 'choice', choice.

Why do most of the people you know call 'mental activity', choice?

Also, 'speculation' AND 'choice' are mental activities.

One, however, is usually followed by an action/behavior, whereas the other is usually not. If you are not sure which one is which, then just let me know, and I will inform you.
Walker wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:40 pm Action also defines intent. Folks are sometimes surprised to discover their actual intent revealed by their actions, and how this actual intent differs from the fantasized intent.
A GREAT EXAMPLE of this happened when a so-called "leader" of a country caused riots and mass mayhem on the exact same country of which 'it' was supposed to be a "leader" of.
Age
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Re: My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

Post by Age »

K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:22 pm
Do you have ANY ACTUAL PROOF for what you just said/claimed here?

If yes, then great where and what is that 'PROOF'?

But if no, then WHY say/claim it, in the beginning?
Any thing that one says does not need a proof.
What happens if one CLAIMS some thing to be true, then even then, to you, they do NOT need proof?

Also, and by the way, I was NOT expecting you to even have ANY proof AT ALL. I was just curious to see if you did, so then, if you did, then I would be able to use that, later on.
K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:22 pm What I suggested was a theory that was not suggested yet. At times some theories find proof. Who knows.
K1Barin
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Re: My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

Post by K1Barin »

Age wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:24 pm
K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:22 pm
Do you have ANY ACTUAL PROOF for what you just said/claimed here?

If yes, then great where and what is that 'PROOF'?

But if no, then WHY say/claim it, in the beginning?
Any thing that one says does not need a proof.
What happens if one CLAIMS some thing to be true, then even then, to you, they do NOT need proof?

Also, and by the way, I was NOT expecting you to even have ANY proof AT ALL. I was just curious to see if you did, so then, if you did, then I would be able to use that, later on.
K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:22 pm What I suggested was a theory that was not suggested yet. At times some theories find proof. Who knows.
I think I have a strong proof for "some choice" as opposed to "all determinism" by rejecting the idea that is contradictory to itself (all determinism) in previous discussion. In this other discussion, I am trying to explain a possible solution for mechanics of choice. I don't have solid proof for this explanation, but I have suggestions for explaining what I had proved.
Age
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Re: My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

Post by Age »

K1Barin wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 pm
Age wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:24 pm
K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:22 pm

Any thing that one says does not need a proof.
What happens if one CLAIMS some thing to be true, then even then, to you, they do NOT need proof?

Also, and by the way, I was NOT expecting you to even have ANY proof AT ALL. I was just curious to see if you did, so then, if you did, then I would be able to use that, later on.
K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:22 pm What I suggested was a theory that was not suggested yet. At times some theories find proof. Who knows.
I think I have a strong proof for "some choice" as opposed to "all determinism" by rejecting the idea that is contradictory to itself (all determinism) in previous discussion.
To me, the proof already exists that there is some so-called " 'choice' as opposed to 'all determinism' ". So, no more further nor stronger proof is necessary, for me.
K1Barin wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 pm In this other discussion, I am trying to explain a possible solution for mechanics of choice.
To me, the so-called 'mechanics of choice' is already KNOWN, thus 'solved'.

One just has to learn and understand how thee Mind and the brain ACTUALLY WORK to understand the 'mechanics' here.
K1Barin wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 pm I don't have solid proof for this explanation, but I have suggestions for explaining what I had proved.
Okay.
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bahman
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Re: My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

Post by bahman »

K1Barin wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:53 pm My Theory for Mechanism of Making Choices

I believe choices exist and we know choices should not happen based on cause and effect. There may be causes for making a decision (choice), but at some point the final piece of choice should come from inside of the body that is making the choice and should not be caused by anything other than that body. Choice should be inner to body or it is not choice. Then if choice exists, something inside the body happens that is not caused by anything.

Making a decision consumes energy, and consuming energy needs causality. All the causes of the choice that one makes would provide the energy for their part, but for that bit of the choice that is not causal, something should pop out of that body that was not in there before. In other words some energy should get created from asserting the intension of making choice.

This might have sounded unscientific, and presently science believes in it being all cause and effect. Therefore they claim that nothing gets dissipated and nothing gets created; everything changes from one form to the other, and the total amount of energy and matter does not change.

Total amount of matter and energy may not decrease as lab observations have shown, but there are actual observations that show that the total amount of matter and energy are increasing. The phenomena is called dark energy and dark matter. The observations by telescopes show that the galaxies are moving apart from each other with positive acceleration; whereas according to big bang theory, the galaxies should move apart with negative acceleration which all has happened after initial big bang explosion. This positive acceleration indicates that the amount of energy is increasing in the cosmos after big bang which the scientists have not found a solid reason for it yet.

I am not claiming that I have a proof that energy that is getting generated from making choices by all the beings of matter that have choice, is the source of the dark energy. But if we have logical proof for existence of choice, there should be an increase in the amount of the energy in the cosmos like dark energy. And there is a persistent increase in the amount of the energy in the cosmos for unknown reasons. Then one can say the relation between these two phenomena may be the explanation for each other. Dark energy is being generated by making choices, and choices can exist because there is increasing energy in the universe. Which means a bit of energy is getting created every time a being of matter makes a choice.

After all there may be live beings of energy too that make choices in their own way, and that is the source of the generation of the dark matter.

Anyway, look at the bright side of it. Maybe the cosmos is expanding and extending and in other words growing exponentially forever as opposed to belief of some scientists that the universe is going to implode and seize to exist some time. Some scientists even estimate the end of universe in tens of trillions of years which is actually much much much shorter time than forever.

When there is choice, there is evolution, and by exponential growth of the universe, there is space and time for the exponential evolution of the universe forever too. And these evolving beings maybe in different forms to beings in our familiar evolution.

And I am not going to dissipate and am going to exist in one form or the other at your service making choices forever in this evolving universe.
There is no mechanism for free will!
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