An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Age
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Age »

K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:26 pm
Age wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:48 pm
K1Barin wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:21 pm [Nobody "lives like" a Determinist.]
I agree.
How does a, so called, "determinist" live?
A Determinist lives like he does not have any other choice but to do anything he is doing.
But you also said and claimed that 'nobody' lives like 'that'. So, this means that there is no such thing as a "determinist". Which then means there is NOTHING to base what a determinist 'lives like', correct?
Age
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Age »

Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:27 pm
Age wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:33 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:09 am If all objects are really events then there are no spatial boundaries between events but there are temporal boundaries. If all events are really objects then there are spatial boundaries between objects but no temporal boundaries.
In the Ultimate Truth there are NO ACTUAL spatial NOR temporal boundaries anywhere, but, in the days when this was being written, 'you', people, are still a considerable amount away from FULLY understanding this FACT.
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:09 am Apart from religious beliefs it's not reasonable to presume that some phenomena are events while other phenomena are objects that events happen to. What is the intuition that makes one decide whether a phenomenon is an event or an object that events happen to?
'Intuition' does NOT make one decide either. Only 'thinking' either way makes one decide, either way.
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:09 am To take the case of billiard -ball determinism according to the theory that all is events, when the billiard balls collide both the billiard-balls and the collision are phenomena. Why we call the balls "objects" and the collision "an event" is because the game could not exist otherwise.Therefore it is not in nature that some phenomena are objects and some are events but it's we who decide which is to be which.
The fact that matter, itself, is bumping into, bouncing off of, or just interacting with itself, is irrefutable. But, as you so rightly POINTED OUT here, is it 'you', human beings, decided, for "yourselves" "which is to be which" or "which IS which".

But, whatever way 'you' CHOOSE, this will NEVER affect what is ACTUALLY happening AND occurring.
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:09 am If the billiard-balls and their collision are both events then both are necessary events.
'Events' ONLY exist because 'you', human beings, have CHOSEN to LOOK AT and SEE Reality/Life/Existence, Itself, not for how It ACTUALLY IS, but how you IMAGINE It is.

Once 'you' CHANGE the way 'you' LOOK AT "things", then thee ACTUAL Truth is extremely VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY to SEE, and UNDERSTAND.
If I understand you, we think alike.
Probably more so then first realized.
K1Barin
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by K1Barin »

Age wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:45 pm
K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:26 pm
Age wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:48 pm

How does a, so called, "determinist" live?
A Determinist lives like he does not have any other choice but to do anything he is doing.
But you also said and claimed that 'nobody' lives like 'that'. So, this means that there is no such thing as a "determinist". Which then means there is NOTHING to base what a determinist 'lives like', correct?
I mean a Determinist should live like that, but that is not possible, so determinism is not correct.
Age
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Age »

K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:54 pm
Age wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:45 pm
K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:26 pm

A Determinist lives like he does not have any other choice but to do anything he is doing.
But you also said and claimed that 'nobody' lives like 'that'. So, this means that there is no such thing as a "determinist". Which then means there is NOTHING to base what a determinist 'lives like', correct?
I mean a Determinist should live like that, but that is not possible, so determinism is not correct.
Adding the word "should" corrects your statement/claim somewhat. BUT, you have now added the issue of who and/or what decides what "should be" or "should not be"?

See, thee Truth is; Some human beings BELIEVE that 'determinism' exists, and ALL of these people live DIFFERENT ways/lives. There is NO one way that ALL people who BELIEVE in determinism "live like".

Also, because people do not live like you say they "should", then this does NOT mean that 'determinism' does not exist.

You have concluded that determinism is not correct. What do you say 'determinism' is?

See, saying/claiming, "Determinism is not correct", is like saying/claiming, "God is not correct". But until we are informed of what 'determinism' and 'God' is, then just saying, "they are not correct" is nonsensical.
K1Barin
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by K1Barin »

Age wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:45 pm You have concluded that determinism is not correct. What do you say 'determinism' is?

See, saying/claiming, "Determinism is not correct", is like saying/claiming, "God is not correct". But until we are informed of what 'determinism' and 'God' is, then just saying, "they are not correct" is nonsensical.
My understanding is that determinism is that nobody has any other choice but what they are doing, and nobody makes a decision truly willingly. Any thing anyone does is decided based on what has happened previously, and they are not any part of it. Every thing started from big bang explosion, and everything happening was going to happen because of that; nothing has had any choice in what happened since then.

By the way maybe determinism is the main reason to nihilism, and for some people to say that they don't exist.

Please correct me if I am wrong about determinism.
Age
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Age »

K1Barin wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:57 am
Age wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:45 pm You have concluded that determinism is not correct. What do you say 'determinism' is?

See, saying/claiming, "Determinism is not correct", is like saying/claiming, "God is not correct". But until we are informed of what 'determinism' and 'God' is, then just saying, "they are not correct" is nonsensical.
My understanding is that determinism is that nobody has any other choice but what they are doing, and nobody makes a decision truly willingly.
What do you mean by 'truly willingly'?
K1Barin wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:57 am Any thing anyone does is decided based on what has happened previously, and they are not any part of it.
There is quite a lot of truth in the first part, and what do you mean by " they are not any part of 'it' "?

Who and/or what are 'they' exactly, and, what is 'it' exactly?

Also, HOW could it even be a possibility that ANY thing NOT be a part of EVERY thing?
K1Barin wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:57 am Every thing started from big bang explosion, and everything happening was going to happen because of that; nothing has had any choice in what happened since then.
There is absolutely NO proof that EVERY thing started from a big bang (explosion).

EVERY thing that is happening 'now' is because of what happened previously, correct?

And, maybe nothing has had any choice in what has happened. But, NO one can refute that they 'have the ability to choose', correct?
K1Barin wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:57 am By the way maybe determinism is the main reason to nihilism, and for some people to say that they don't exist.
ANY thing that ends with an 'ism' is just a 'thing' that someone BELIEVES is true. And, just because someone BELIEVES some 'thing' is true does NOT necessarily make that 'thing' true.

Also, EVERY 'ism' is just an ideology, which does NOT necessarily have absolutely ANY thing AT ALL to do with Reality and what is ACTUALLY True, Real, and Correct.
K1Barin wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:57 am Please correct me if I am wrong about determinism.
There is NO right NOR wrong about 'determinism'. EVERY person has their OWN view of 'determinism' and so EACH one puts their OWN perspective on 'determinism'.

What you expressed was just your OWN view and perspective, of which there is NOTHING 'wrong' with that, in that that is YOUR view. However, if your view can fit in PERFECTLY with EVERY thing else, with each view/thing placing each piece of the puzzle together as One making one True, FULL, and Accurate Picture of Life, Itself, is other thing.

If ALL of your views are completely and irrefutably compatible with each other, without any fault nor contradiction at all, well just have to wait and see.

What appears to be happening here, from my perspective, is that you BELIEVE 'determinism' alone does NOT exist but BELIEVE some thing else does, and you are just 'trying to' "justify" and "rationalize" your BELIEFS as being what is actually true, right, and correct.
K1Barin
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by K1Barin »

Age wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:43 am What appears to be happening here, from my perspective, is that you BELIEVE 'determinism' alone does NOT exist but BELIEVE some thing else does, and you are just 'trying to' "justify" and "rationalize" your BELIEFS as being what is actually true, right, and correct.
That is true; I believe that there is some choice and there is some determinism. And I am 'trying to' "justify" and "rationalize" that for the sake of my loved ones understand the truth, and for the sake of myself to understand whether I am right or wrong, by discussing it.
Age
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Age »

K1Barin wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:14 am
Age wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:43 am What appears to be happening here, from my perspective, is that you BELIEVE 'determinism' alone does NOT exist but BELIEVE some thing else does, and you are just 'trying to' "justify" and "rationalize" your BELIEFS as being what is actually true, right, and correct.
That is true; I believe that there is some choice and there is some determinism. And I am 'trying to' "justify" and "rationalize" that for the sake of my loved ones understand the truth, and for the sake of myself to understand whether I am right or wrong, by discussing it.
Well that human beings have choice/are able to choose AND that matter is 'determined' is obviously an irrefutable Truth.

So, there is NO need for 'beliefs' here.

Does ANY one even disagree with that?
K1Barin
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by K1Barin »

Age wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:20 am Well that human beings have choice/are able to choose AND that matter is 'determined' is obviously an irrefutable Truth.

So, there is NO need for 'beliefs' here.

Does ANY one even disagree with that?
I think there are people who believe that every thing is determined, and there are people who believe that every thing is choice. I and many others, including you maybe, believe that it is some thing in between, some choice and some determinism.
K1Barin
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by K1Barin »

K1Barin wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:36 am
Age wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:20 am Well that human beings have choice/are able to choose AND that matter is 'determined' is obviously an irrefutable Truth.

So, there is NO need for 'beliefs' here.

Does ANY one even disagree with that?
I think there are people who believe that every thing is determined, and there are people who believe that every thing is choice. I and many others, including you maybe, believe that it is some thing in between, some choice and some determinism.
And some thing else, I was reasoning by rejecting the ideas that are contradictory to themselves. This is what is new about my initial post.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Immanuel Can »

K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:26 pm A Determinist lives like he does not have any other choice but to do anything he is doing.
I"ve never met one that did.

Every Determinist I've ever known acts like when he gets up in the morning, he has to make some decisions and choose some courses of action. No Determinist refuses to go to a car dealership to buy his next car because he knows that fate will deliver it to him anyway. No Determinist refuses to brush his own teeth because their continuation or decay is predetermined before his brush touches them. No Determinist tells his prospective wife, "You will be marrying me because it was predetermined...see you on Tuesday." :wink: No Determinist ever thinks there's no point in arguing for Determinism because one's beliefs are already fated, either.

And every ideologically- earnest Determinist still chooses to berate people for not choosing to believe in Determinism.

This is not merely hypocrisy, (though, of course, it's also that). It's evidence that even the most ardent Determinist can't find a way to live as if Determinism were true.

Nobody can.
Age
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Age »

K1Barin wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:36 am
Age wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:20 am Well that human beings have choice/are able to choose AND that matter is 'determined' is obviously an irrefutable Truth.

So, there is NO need for 'beliefs' here.

Does ANY one even disagree with that?
I think there are people who believe that every thing is determined, and there are people who believe that every thing is choice. I and many others, including you maybe, believe that it is some thing in between, some choice and some determinism.
I neither believe nor disbelieve ANY thing.

Now that that is out of the way,

How could EVERY thing be a choice? Choice has only been in existence, and only exists within beings, since deciding beings have been in existence. EVERY thing else, which were existing prior to choosing beings, and which can not choose, obviously does NOT choose and so is NOT choice.

If there is ANY one who truly BELIEVES that EVERY thing is choice, then please come forward and explain what 'it' IS, EXACTLY, that you BELIEVE is true.

If there is ANY one who truly BELIEVES that EVERY thing is determined, then please come forward and explain what 'it' IS, EXACTLY, that you BELIEVE is true.

Until then what is OBVIOUS is that where matter IS AT, at ANY given moment, then that was pre-determined, by previous actions, or causation, itself - 'determinism'. And, matter has formed into a shape, known as 'animal form', which has the ability to choose - 'free will'.

BOTH 'free will' AND 'determinism' play a part in Life and Existence.

This can NOT be refuted.

Now, if ANY one wants to disagree or dispute this FACT, then feel FREE TO. But that is about all they can do. Facts and thee Truth of things, speak for themselves.
Age
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Age »

K1Barin wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:02 am
K1Barin wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:36 am
Age wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:20 am Well that human beings have choice/are able to choose AND that matter is 'determined' is obviously an irrefutable Truth.

So, there is NO need for 'beliefs' here.

Does ANY one even disagree with that?
I think there are people who believe that every thing is determined, and there are people who believe that every thing is choice. I and many others, including you maybe, believe that it is some thing in between, some choice and some determinism.
And some thing else, I was reasoning by rejecting the ideas that are contradictory to themselves. This is what is new about my initial post.
ANY idea, which is CONTRADICTORY, would be better off NEVER accepted, and ALWAYS rejected.

And, ANY idea, which states NO one has the ability to choose or that EVERY thing is choice is, obviously, CONTRADICTORY.
Age
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:49 am
K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:26 pm A Determinist lives like he does not have any other choice but to do anything he is doing.
I"ve never met one that did.

Every Determinist I've ever known acts like when he gets up in the morning, he has to make some decisions and choose some courses of action. No Determinist refuses to go to a car dealership to buy his next car because he knows that fate will deliver it to him anyway. No Determinist refuses to brush his own teeth because their continuation or decay is predetermined before his brush touches them. No Determinist tells his prospective wife, "You will be marrying me because it was predetermined...see you on Tuesday." :wink: No Determinist ever thinks there's no point in arguing for Determinism because one's beliefs are already fated, either.
This kind of LOOKING AT, and SEEING, "other" human beings in this way is just illogical and does NOTHING
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:49 am And every ideologically- earnest Determinist still chooses to berate people for not choosing to believe in Determinism.

This is not merely hypocrisy, (though, of course, it's also that). It's evidence that even the most ardent Determinist can't find a way to live as if Determinism were true.

Nobody can.
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Sculptor
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:49 am
K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:26 pm A Determinist lives like he does not have any other choice but to do anything he is doing.
I"ve never met one that did.

Every Determinist I've ever known acts like when he gets up in the morning, he has to make some decisions and choose some courses of action. No Determinist refuses to go to a car dealership to buy his next car because he knows that fate will deliver it to him anyway. No Determinist refuses to brush his own teeth because their continuation or decay is predetermined before his brush touches them. No Determinist tells his prospective wife, "You will be marrying me because it was predetermined...see you on Tuesday." :wink: No Determinist ever thinks there's no point in arguing for Determinism because one's beliefs are already fated, either.

And every ideologically- earnest Determinist still chooses to berate people for not choosing to believe in Determinism.

This is not merely hypocrisy, (though, of course, it's also that). It's evidence that even the most ardent Determinist can't find a way to live as if Determinism were true.

Nobody can.
I make thousands of choices everyday. I make them determinedly, as I am determined to get through the day the way I want. My needs and desires drive me through the day until I wish to sleep. Sometimes my wants are not enough and I stay awake until my needs over ride my active mind. But no matter what I do, whether or not it is determined by the needs of my body or the needs of my mind I am determined to do them in my interests.
And thank fuck for all that. What kind of ridiculous world would we live in if though some idiotic notion of freedom I could act against my will; no matter what my learning, volition and state of consciousness tells me - because that is the childish puerile suggestion of twits like Immanuel Can't. who lack the basic imagination to face the fact of reality.
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