An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Age
Posts: 20205
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:48 pm
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:07 pm
Believe in what you like.
Here is FURTHER PROOF of just HOW MUCH the adult human beings, in the days when this was being written, were just NOT LISTENING. Even when the WORDS are CLEARLY WRITTEN DOWN in front of them, and so, literally, 'spelled out for them' in CLEARLY WRITTEN WORDS, they STILL could NOT HEAR what was being said.

So, how MANY TIMES do I have to INFORM 'you', "bahman", that I NEITHER believe NOR disbelieve ANY thing, before this SINKS IN and you can comprehend and understand this Fact?

Saying, "Believe in what you like", besides being a Truly ILLOGICAL statement is NO REAL WAY to 'try to' counter what I POINTED OUT and SHOWED here.
I know that you believe in the mind.
Well this is one of the most ABSURD, Incorrect, and STRANGEST comments that I have EVER observed in this forum.

Would you now like to explain to the readers how you SUPPOSEDLY "know" "that I believe in the mind"?

If yes, then GREAT.

But, if no, then WHY NOT?

Also, what do the words "believe in the mind" even actually MEAN?
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:48 pm
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:07 pm
I just gave the definitions for determinism and free will. They are two different things.
Are you AWARE that IT IS POSSIBLE for two different things to BOTH exist in the EXACT SAME Universe?

If yes, then BOTH 'free will' AND 'determinism' EXIST in this One and ONLY Universe.

But, ONCE AGAIN, this ALL depends on how one OBSERVES, and DEFINES, 'things'.
Mind for example cannot be free and determined. THe whole universe is a mix of things.
These two sentences together appear to NOT follow logically, but anyway, WHY can 'mind' NOT be free and determined?

Also, what 'mind' are you referring to here?
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:48 pm
Age wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:03 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:07 pm
So you cannot fly.
Here is ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE of WHEN and HOW these adult human beings QUICKLY JUMP to ASSUMPTIONS and CONCLUSIONS, based on absolutely NOTHING AT ALL other than their OWN DISTORTED thinking.

As I said previously, if I can fly or not depends on the situation, and what EXACTLY is classed as 'fly/flying'.

Just because I, OBVIOUSLY, can NOT fly like a crow does NOT mean that I cannot fly.
bahman wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:07 pm Therefore you fall which is constraint by laws of nature no matter if you are free or not.
And here is A GREAT EXAMPLE of how these adult human beings will say just about ANY thing, in order to 'try to' argue for their currently HELD ONTO BELIEFS.
Can you fly or not? Yes or no?
As I have said PREVIOUSLY, that depends on the situation, and what EXACTLY is classed as 'fly/flying'.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:35 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:11 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:53 pm

Do you think bahman actually knows the meaning of the phrase "conflict of interest". I avoided responding to this post as mention of this idea was at best a bit left field at worst a complete misunderstanding of the phrase, and I did not see why bahman thought it relavant.
By the conflict of interest, I mean that there is tension between two desires for example.
Yes that is the bullshit I thought it was
So you have never had tension in what you want to do and what you do not want to do? What do you do when the outcome of options are not known?
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:59 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:48 pm
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm

Here is FURTHER PROOF of just HOW MUCH the adult human beings, in the days when this was being written, were just NOT LISTENING. Even when the WORDS are CLEARLY WRITTEN DOWN in front of them, and so, literally, 'spelled out for them' in CLEARLY WRITTEN WORDS, they STILL could NOT HEAR what was being said.

So, how MANY TIMES do I have to INFORM 'you', "bahman", that I NEITHER believe NOR disbelieve ANY thing, before this SINKS IN and you can comprehend and understand this Fact?

Saying, "Believe in what you like", besides being a Truly ILLOGICAL statement is NO REAL WAY to 'try to' counter what I POINTED OUT and SHOWED here.
I know that you believe in the mind.
Well this is one of the most ABSURD, Incorrect, and STRANGEST comments that I have EVER observed in this forum.

Would you now like to explain to the readers how you SUPPOSEDLY "know" "that I believe in the mind"?

If yes, then GREAT.

But, if no, then WHY NOT?

Also, what do the words "believe in the mind" even actually MEAN?
You don't believe in thee mind?
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:48 pm
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm Are you AWARE that IT IS POSSIBLE for two different things to BOTH exist in the EXACT SAME Universe?

If yes, then BOTH 'free will' AND 'determinism' EXIST in this One and ONLY Universe.

But, ONCE AGAIN, this ALL depends on how one OBSERVES, and DEFINES, 'things'.
Mind for example cannot be free and determined. THe whole universe is a mix of things.
These two sentences together appear to NOT follow logically, but anyway, WHY can 'mind' NOT be free and determined?
Because of the very definition of free and determined.
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm Also, what 'mind' are you referring to here?
Mind in general.
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:48 pm
Age wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:03 pm Here is ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE of WHEN and HOW these adult human beings QUICKLY JUMP to ASSUMPTIONS and CONCLUSIONS, based on absolutely NOTHING AT ALL other than their OWN DISTORTED thinking.

As I said previously, if I can fly or not depends on the situation, and what EXACTLY is classed as 'fly/flying'.

Just because I, OBVIOUSLY, can NOT fly like a crow does NOT mean that I cannot fly.

And here is A GREAT EXAMPLE of how these adult human beings will say just about ANY thing, in order to 'try to' argue for their currently HELD ONTO BELIEFS.
Can you fly or not? Yes or no?
As I have said PREVIOUSLY, that depends on the situation, and what EXACTLY is classed as 'fly/flying'.
Depends on what?
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8536
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:59 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:35 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:11 pm
By the conflict of interest, I mean that there is tension between two desires for example.
Yes that is the bullshit I thought it was
So you have never had tension in what you want to do and what you do not want to do? What do you do when the outcome of options are not known?
That is not the issue.
The issue is not about tension but your ignorance
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:16 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:59 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:35 pm

Yes that is the bullshit I thought it was
So you have never had tension in what you want to do and what you do not want to do? What do you do when the outcome of options are not known?
That is not the issue.
The issue is not about tension but your ignorance
You are not making sense at all.
Belinda
Posts: 8035
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Belinda »

bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:08 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:45 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:52 pm

Word salad.
I blacked of a bit of Bahman's post as copied by Sculptor.

Deciding where there is a conflict of interest is not free choice but is caused by the subject's reasoning ability and grasp of facts, and these in turn are caused by his human heritage and then by his education and inherent ability to reason.
Deciding when there is a conflict of interest is a free decision in my dictionary. How do you define free decision?
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:42 pm If you decide to do what you don't like you will be caused to do this by your desire to prove something,or because you like to make yourself suffer, or because you enjoy gambling on a chance, or because you are a slave to mind altering drugs. There is nothing in the world that is not caused i.e. since miracles went out of fashion.
Have you ever been in a situation when the outcomes of options are unknown? Can't you decide and resolve such a situation?
Yes, I have. I have guessed, and I have gambled. Guesses and gambles don't need reason to accomplish them.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:56 pm Yes, I have. I have guessed, and I have gambled. Guesses and gambles don't need reason to accomplish them.
Since, "reason," is just a formal term for thinking, just how do you go about, "guessing," or choosing to take a gamble without thinking? It may not be good thinking, but it must be some kind of thinking. A guess actually is a kind of thinking. It's thinking, "I don't know what's is correct here so I just pick something." It's still, "reason."
Age
Posts: 20205
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:09 pm
Age wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:59 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:48 pm
I know that you believe in the mind.
Well this is one of the most ABSURD, Incorrect, and STRANGEST comments that I have EVER observed in this forum.

Would you now like to explain to the readers how you SUPPOSEDLY "know" "that I believe in the mind"?

If yes, then GREAT.

But, if no, then WHY NOT?

Also, what do the words "believe in the mind" even actually MEAN?
You don't believe in thee mind?
Here is further PROOF of how these people just could NOT listen, NOR hear.

Also, if you EVER STOP imagining and assuming I am saying and meaning some thing when ALL I DOING is just asking questions from thee Truly OPEN perspective, for CLARIFICATION, then you will ALSO STOP making such Wrong and RIDICULOUS conclusions, like you have here, ONCE AGAIN.
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:09 pm
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:48 pm
Mind for example cannot be free and determined. THe whole universe is a mix of things.
These two sentences together appear to NOT follow logically, but anyway, WHY can 'mind' NOT be free and determined?
Because of the very definition of free and determined.
The definitionS of the words 'free' and 'determined' are many and varied. Just like a LOT of other words are. Therefore, YOUR CONCLUSION that the "VERY DEFINITION of 'free' and 'determined' can only mean One thing ONLY.

If 'Mind' is OPEN, then what is It, supposedly, NOT 'free' from? And, when one puts the 'Mind' to doing or achieving some thing, then how is this NOT 'determined'?
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:09 pm
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm Also, what 'mind' are you referring to here?
Mind in general.
How could the statement, "Mind in general", even make sense or be a logical statement?

You CLAIM there are MANY "minds", so which one were you referring to, EXACTLY?

Or, are you 'trying to' suggest here that EVERY "mind" is the EXACT SAME, or behaves or works in the EXACT SAME way?
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:09 pm
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:48 pm
Can you fly or not? Yes or no?
As I have said PREVIOUSLY, that depends on the situation, and what EXACTLY is classed as 'fly/flying'.
Depends on what?
ONCE AGAIN, the situation, and what EXACTLY is classed as 'fly/flying'.
Belinda
Posts: 8035
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:39 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:56 pm Yes, I have. I have guessed, and I have gambled. Guesses and gambles don't need reason to accomplish them.
Since, "reason," is just a formal term for thinking, just how do you go about, "guessing," or choosing to take a gamble without thinking? It may not be good thinking, but it must be some kind of thinking. A guess actually is a kind of thinking. It's thinking, "I don't know what's is correct here so I just pick something." It's still, "reason."
It's true that intuition may influence a guess, but when you are gambling against a machine your guesses are random.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by bahman »

Belinda wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:56 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:08 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:45 pm

I blacked of a bit of Bahman's post as copied by Sculptor.

Deciding where there is a conflict of interest is not free choice but is caused by the subject's reasoning ability and grasp of facts, and these in turn are caused by his human heritage and then by his education and inherent ability to reason.
Deciding when there is a conflict of interest is a free decision in my dictionary. How do you define free decision?
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:42 pm If you decide to do what you don't like you will be caused to do this by your desire to prove something,or because you like to make yourself suffer, or because you enjoy gambling on a chance, or because you are a slave to mind altering drugs. There is nothing in the world that is not caused i.e. since miracles went out of fashion.
Have you ever been in a situation when the outcomes of options are unknown? Can't you decide and resolve such a situation?
Yes, I have. I have guessed, and I have gambled. Guesses and gambles don't need reason to accomplish them.
So you agree that you are free?
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:10 am
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:09 pm
Age wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:59 pm
Well this is one of the most ABSURD, Incorrect, and STRANGEST comments that I have EVER observed in this forum.

Would you now like to explain to the readers how you SUPPOSEDLY "know" "that I believe in the mind"?

If yes, then GREAT.

But, if no, then WHY NOT?

Also, what do the words "believe in the mind" even actually MEAN?
You don't believe in thee mind?
Here is further PROOF of how these people just could NOT listen, NOR hear.

Also, if you EVER STOP imagining and assuming I am saying and meaning some thing when ALL I DOING is just asking questions from thee Truly OPEN perspective, for CLARIFICATION, then you will ALSO STOP making such Wrong and RIDICULOUS conclusions, like you have here, ONCE AGAIN.
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:09 pm
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm
These two sentences together appear to NOT follow logically, but anyway, WHY can 'mind' NOT be free and determined?
Because of the very definition of free and determined.
The definitionS of the words 'free' and 'determined' are many and varied. Just like a LOT of other words are. Therefore, YOUR CONCLUSION that the "VERY DEFINITION of 'free' and 'determined' can only mean One thing ONLY.

If 'Mind' is OPEN, then what is It, supposedly, NOT 'free' from? And, when one puts the 'Mind' to doing or achieving some thing, then how is this NOT 'determined'?
I already defined them.
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:09 pm
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm Also, what 'mind' are you referring to here?
Mind in general.
How could the statement, "Mind in general", even make sense or be a logical statement?

You CLAIM there are MANY "minds", so which one were you referring to, EXACTLY?

Or, are you 'trying to' suggest here that EVERY "mind" is the EXACT SAME, or behaves or works in the EXACT SAME way?
I mean that each mind works the same way.
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:09 pm
Age wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm As I have said PREVIOUSLY, that depends on the situation, and what EXACTLY is classed as 'fly/flying'.
Depends on what?
ONCE AGAIN, the situation, and what EXACTLY is classed as 'fly/flying'.
Anybody knows what is flying.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:43 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:39 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:56 pm Yes, I have. I have guessed, and I have gambled. Guesses and gambles don't need reason to accomplish them.
Since, "reason," is just a formal term for thinking, just how do you go about, "guessing," or choosing to take a gamble without thinking? It may not be good thinking, but it must be some kind of thinking. A guess actually is a kind of thinking. It's thinking, "I don't know what's is correct here so I just pick something." It's still, "reason."
It's true that intuition may influence a guess, but when you are gambling against a machine your guesses are random.
Is a guess something you do, or something that happens to you?

If you do it, it's not random. If it happens to you, you did not do it.
Belinda
Posts: 8035
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Belinda »

bahman wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:56 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:56 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:08 pm
Deciding when there is a conflict of interest is a free decision in my dictionary. How do you define free decision?


Have you ever been in a situation when the outcomes of options are unknown? Can't you decide and resolve such a situation?
Yes, I have. I have guessed, and I have gambled. Guesses and gambles don't need reason to accomplish them.
So you agree that you are free?
Gambling is especially unfree as reason does not enter into random choice.
Skepdick
Posts: 14366
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Skepdick »

Belinda wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:59 pm Gambling is especially unfree as reason does not enter into random choice.
What could be more necessary than random choice to keep the gambler alive?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan%27s_ass
Belinda
Posts: 8035
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Belinda »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:14 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:59 pm Gambling is especially unfree as reason does not enter into random choice.
What could be more necessary than random choice to keep the gambler alive?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan%27s_ass
Recently someone introduced a useful heuristic the Apollonian and Dionysian dichotomy. Not many addicts to gambling are Apollonians.
Post Reply