An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

[Age]

Your body is subjected to the laws of nature. Your mind is free. Your mind can however affect your body when there are options for movement of your body.

LOL There are ALWAYS options for movement of the body. So, there ACTUALLY exists BOTH now, correct?

You don't read carefully. I said that you can move your body when there are options. Regardless, the movement of your body is restricted by laws of nature.

SO, what you are NOW saying is that ACTUALLY there exists BOTH.

Correct this if it is wrong, to you.

If this is NOT correct, then WHY?

You cannot stop falling when you are falling down from a building? Could you do otherwise?

Yes. Depending on the ACTUAL situation.

[Age]

Nature does constrain the mind when it comes to the availability of options, one can choose an option that is permissible so-called freedom of will and cannot choose otherwise. But the mind is free to choose between available options so-called free will.

So, what EXACTLY is this so-called "system", which you CLAIM can NOT have both.

Your body for example. Its motion is subjected to the laws of nature.

So, to you, "your body" is NOT controlled/influenced by "your mind" AT ALL, correct?

What you appear to be saying now is that "your body" is a so-called "system", which sometimes you CLAIM is controlled solely by nature, which is deterministic, BUT at other times you say is controlled by "your mind", which makes "free decisions" and which is NOT controlled by nature AT ALL. Or, what you appear to be saying is that SOMETIMES "your body" is controlled by nature, which is deterministic", and at OTHER TIMES is controlled by some UNINFLUENCED at all "mind", which again you CLAIM is "your mind".

Are you at all able to CLARIFY ANY of this?

[bahman]

Explain how your mind makes a choice... Take us through the steps!

For what regards the decision, my mind just does it therefore there are no steps involved in it since making a decision is an ability of the mind.

In other words, you do NOT YET KNOW.

Also, your sentence does NOT logically follow either.

Mind, however, is exposed to the options by experiencing the situation. The mind then decides and resolves the conflict of interest if there is any.

This explains NOTHING AT ALL.

Mind finally causes.

The question posed to you was; Explain how your mind makes a choice... Take us through the steps!

Yet your "explanation" so far is;

Mind is exposed to options.
Mind just makes decisions.
Mind finally causes.

Which, AGAIN, is saying/explaining absolutely NOTHING AT ALL.

I suggest you learn and/or find out what the Mind is EXACTLY, FIRST, explain what the Mind IS, and then START from there.

These three abilities, experiencing, deciding, and causing are the abilities of the mind. They are not reducible to anything else so you cannot say that experiencing is the result of the matter process.

But experiencing IS the result of the matter process. The matter actually being the senses, of the physical body, generally known as the human body.

The matter process however is needed to form Qualia which can be experienced by the mind.

And what AGAIN is 'the mind', and how EXACTLY does 'it' work (besides 'it just does')?

The decision also is not reducible to anything else such as the matter process although the matter process is needed to experience and realize the situation. The same for causation.

LOL You just got through "explaining" to us, only two sentences back, that 'experiencing' and 'causing' "are NOT reducible to ANY thing else" AND "so you can NOT say that 'experiencing' is the result of the matter process". But now you are saying, "although the matter process is NEEDED to 'experience' and to 'realize', the situation. The same also applies to 'causation'.

Are you able to SEE the CONTRADICTION/S here?

I have to add that it is through making a free decision that we can resolve a situation where there is a conflict of interest within.

When you say, "within" here, what EXACTLY are you referring to?

See, to me, the ONLY situation where there is a so-called "conflict of interest" here could be 'within' 'you', human beings.

Also, what is a 'free decision', and what is that 'decision' 'free' from EXACTLY? And, what other kinds of 'decisions' are there?

A deterministic (how matter behaves) system cannot resolve any conflict of interest.

Will you provide an example of a 'conflict of interest' outside of one's own thinking?

Also, if there is a so-called "deterministic system", which you say can NOT contain 'free will' or 'the mind', then what OTHER "system" could there be and what is that "system" called, to you, which is separated, and which does contain what you call "your mind" and "free decisions"?

Also, how EXACTLY are these two different and separate systems" separated, EXACTLY?

That is why the free decision is not reducible to anything such as the matter process.

So, are you here 'trying to' suggest that 'a mind', without ANY 'matter process' AT ALL, is able to exist and make so-called "free" decisions?

If yes, then what POSSIBLE 'decision' could "this mind" make? And, what POSSIBLE influence could that 'decision' have?

OBVIOUSLY, if NO 'matter process' is NEEDED, then these "free decisions" could be made with NO 'matter' AT ALL, of which to cause 'an influence' on or over. Which is just too ABSURD to even imagine.

I will go through this later.

[bahman]

LOL There are ALWAYS options for movement of the body. So, there ACTUALLY exists BOTH now, correct?

You don't read carefully. I said that you can move your body when there are options. Regardless, the movement of your body is restricted by laws of nature.

SO, what you are NOW saying is that ACTUALLY there exists BOTH.

Both what?

Correct this if it is wrong, to you.

Correct what?

If this is NOT correct, then WHY?

You cannot stop falling when you are falling down from a building? Could you do otherwise?

Yes. Depending on the ACTUAL situation.

So you can fly?

[bahman]

So, what EXACTLY is this so-called "system", which you CLAIM can NOT have both.

Your body for example. Its motion is subjected to the laws of nature.

So, to you, "your body" is NOT controlled/influenced by "your mind" AT ALL, correct?

What you appear to be saying now is that "your body" is a so-called "system", which sometimes you CLAIM is controlled solely by nature, which is deterministic, BUT at other times you say is controlled by "your mind", which makes "free decisions" and which is NOT controlled by nature AT ALL. Or, what you appear to be saying is that SOMETIMES "your body" is controlled by nature, which is deterministic", and at OTHER TIMES is controlled by some UNINFLUENCED at all "mind", which again you CLAIM is "your mind".

Are you at all able to CLARIFY ANY of this?

The motion of your body is constraint by laws of nature. Of course, your mind can affect and cause your body to move subject to the constraint, laws of nature.

[K1Barin]

Fine, no problem. I just meant there may be steps to make choices, and we still have choices and it's not all deterministic. The post I wrote is a theory for mechanics of choice with a non deterministic step.

Will you help us out a bit more by informing us of what discussion group and thread that post is in and on what page that post is on?

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=33738

[Age]

You don't read carefully. I said that you can move your body when there are options. Regardless, the movement of your body is restricted by laws of nature.

SO, what you are NOW saying is that ACTUALLY there exists BOTH.

Both what?

Have you already forgotten that it was you who wrote and said;

You cannot have both in a system.?

If no, then WHY ask, "Both what"?

But, if yes, then the word 'both', which you SAID, "You cannot have both of, in a system", was referring to 'determinism' AND 'choice/free will'.

So, are you back on track now?

Correct this if it is wrong, to you.

Correct what?

REALLY?

If 'my interpretation' of what you are saying and claiming is WRONG here, then CORRECT 'it'. 'it' being 'MY INTERPRETATION' of what you are 'TRYING TO' say and claim here.

Is this CLEAR for you now?

You cannot stop falling when you are falling down from a building? Could you do otherwise?

Yes. Depending on the ACTUAL situation.

So you can fly?

AGAIN, that depends on the situation, and what EXACTLY is classed as 'fly/flying'.

Also, are you trying to DEFLECT here?

[Age]

Your body for example. Its motion is subjected to the laws of nature.

So, to you, "your body" is NOT controlled/influenced by "your mind" AT ALL, correct?

What you appear to be saying now is that "your body" is a so-called "system", which sometimes you CLAIM is controlled solely by nature, which is deterministic, BUT at other times you say is controlled by "your mind", which makes "free decisions" and which is NOT controlled by nature AT ALL. Or, what you appear to be saying is that SOMETIMES "your body" is controlled by nature, which is deterministic", and at OTHER TIMES is controlled by some UNINFLUENCED at all "mind", which again you CLAIM is "your mind".

Are you at all able to CLARIFY ANY of this?

The motion of your body is constraint by laws of nature. Of course, your mind can affect and cause your body to move subject to the constraint, laws of nature.

BUT, you are TRYING TO CLAIM that this so-called "your mind" thing is NOT affected by the laws of nature.

You have ALSO TRIED TO CLAIM that there is NOT BOTH 'determinism/laws of nature' AND 'free choosing mind', in "the system".

Until you start answering and clarifying, soundly AND validly, my clarifying questions posed to you, then you are just putting "your own self" deeper down an illogical spiral, of which the MORE you 'try to' escape from the MORE ILLOGICAL you are coming across.

Look, I asked you what 'the system' , which you mention and refer to here, IS? And, until you START there, the rest of what you are saying will remain completely and utterly ILLOGICAL and NONSENSICAL.

[bahman]

SO, what you are NOW saying is that ACTUALLY there exists BOTH.

Both what?

Have you already forgotten that it was you who wrote and said;

You cannot have both in a system.?

If no, then WHY ask, "Both what"?

But, if yes, then the word 'both', which you SAID, "You cannot have both of, in a system", was referring to 'determinism' AND 'choice/free will'.

So, are you back on track now?

Correct this if it is wrong, to you.

Correct what?

REALLY?

If 'my interpretation' of what you are saying and claiming is WRONG here, then CORRECT 'it'. 'it' being 'MY INTERPRETATION' of what you are 'TRYING TO' say and claim here.

Is this CLEAR for you now?

No, you cannot have both in a system. This is against the definition of determinism and free. Determinism is about a chain of events. Free means that your decision is not biased by options. An option is a phenomenon when a chain of events is about to fork. You decide at the moment of fork, choose one path and leave another.

Yes. Depending on the ACTUAL situation.

So you can fly?

AGAIN, that depends on the situation, and what EXACTLY is classed as 'fly/flying'.

Also, are you trying to DEFLECT here?

Fly like a crow?

[bahman]

So, to you, "your body" is NOT controlled/influenced by "your mind" AT ALL, correct?

What you appear to be saying now is that "your body" is a so-called "system", which sometimes you CLAIM is controlled solely by nature, which is deterministic, BUT at other times you say is controlled by "your mind", which makes "free decisions" and which is NOT controlled by nature AT ALL. Or, what you appear to be saying is that SOMETIMES "your body" is controlled by nature, which is deterministic", and at OTHER TIMES is controlled by some UNINFLUENCED at all "mind", which again you CLAIM is "your mind".

Are you at all able to CLARIFY ANY of this?

The motion of your body is constraint by laws of nature. Of course, your mind can affect and cause your body to move subject to the constraint, laws of nature.

BUT, you are TRYING TO CLAIM that this so-called "your mind" thing is NOT affected by the laws of nature.

Of course, my mind is not affected by anything. It is uncased-cause of everything that you experienced and what you have not experienced yet.

You have ALSO TRIED TO CLAIM that there is NOT BOTH 'determinism/laws of nature' AND 'free choosing mind', in "the system".

It depends on how do you define a system. Let's define the system as the sum of mind and Qualia, Qualia is the stuff that the mind experiences and causes.

Until you start answering and clarifying, soundly AND validly, my clarifying questions posed to you, then you are just putting "your own self" deeper down an illogical spiral, of which the MORE you 'try to' escape from the MORE ILLOGICAL you are coming across.

Look, I asked you what 'the system' , which you mention and refer to here, IS? And, until you START there, the rest of what you are saying will remain completely and utterly ILLOGICAL and NONSENSICAL.

I already defined the system.

[Age]

Both what?

Have you already forgotten that it was you who wrote and said;

You cannot have both in a system.?

If no, then WHY ask, "Both what"?

But, if yes, then the word 'both', which you SAID, "You cannot have both of, in a system", was referring to 'determinism' AND 'choice/free will'.

So, are you back on track now?

Correct what?

REALLY?

If 'my interpretation' of what you are saying and claiming is WRONG here, then CORRECT 'it'. 'it' being 'MY INTERPRETATION' of what you are 'TRYING TO' say and claim here.

Is this CLEAR for you now?

No, you cannot have both in a system. This is against the definition of determinism and free.

LOL
LOL
LOL

When will 'you', human beings, GROW UP and LEARN that what is 'the definition' of some thing to one of 'you' is NOT necessarily 'the definition' of the same thing, to "another" one of 'you'?

ALSO, and by the way, 'the definition' of 'determinism' AND 'free will' MEANS that they BOTH exist, and play parts in the WHOLE, of 'the system' of thee Universe, Itself.

Now, EITHER what you say and claim is ACTUALLY True, Right, AND Correct, or it is NOT, and let us NOT forget that 'you', human beings, have been 'arguing' this 'determinism' OR 'free will' discussion for thousands of years WITHOUT ANY logical conclusion BEING FOUND/UNCOVERED.

So, to me, this FURTHER PROVES that what I SEE and SAY could be thee ACTUAL Truth here is thee ACTUAL Truth, in the end. After all, this view fits in PERFECTLY with EVERY thing else, forming One completely WHOLE, COMPATIBLE UNIFIED view of things.

Determinism is about a chain of events. Free means that your decision is not biased by options. An option is a phenomenon when a chain of events is about to fork. You decide at the moment of fork, choose one path and leave another.

Which FURTHER MAKES what I am SEEING and SAYING even MORE true, right, AND correct.

But only until you STOP BELIEVING what you do now, will you BEGIN to be ABLE to LOOK AT and SEE things, from ANOTHER perspective.

But carry on the way you are and keep EXPRESSING your BELIEFS. That way I keep EXPOSING HOW and WHY HOLDING ONTO BELIEFS only CLOSES 'you' OFF to thee ACTUAL Truth of things.

As I have expressed to 'you' previously "bahman" A LOT of what you are thinking and believing is ACTUALLY VERY CLOSE to thee ACTUAL Truth of things, BUT because you have and are HOLDING ONTO these BELIEFS of yours BEFORE you KNOW what thee One and ONLY Truth ACTUAL IS, you are NOT YET able to SEE HOW nor WHY your views are so close to being Correct. And, when ANY one CHALLENGES or QUESTIONS you on your BELIEFS, you FAIL MISERABLY in your so-called "explanations". As SHOWN and PROVEN by your response to "sculptor's" request to, or expectation of, you, which was; Explain how your mind makes a choice... Take us through the steps!

Your "explanation" was illogical nonsense.

So you can fly?

AGAIN, that depends on the situation, and what EXACTLY is classed as 'fly/flying'.

Also, are you trying to DEFLECT here?

Fly like a crow?

Do you even think or IMAGINE that it is POSSIBLE for a human being to fly, "like a crow"?

If yes, then HOW?

But if no, then WHY AGAIN say something so ABSURD, ILLOGICAL, AND NONSENSICAL?

This, after all, is a philosophical discussion forum, and NOT ANY of the other discussion forums available, to you.

[Age]

The motion of your body is constraint by laws of nature. Of course, your mind can affect and cause your body to move subject to the constraint, laws of nature.

BUT, you are TRYING TO CLAIM that this so-called "your mind" thing is NOT affected by the laws of nature.

Of course, my mind is not affected by anything.

LOL
LOL
LOL

I will say this AGAIN, there is NO such thing as a "your mind". UNLESS, OF COURSE, ANY one of 'you', human beings, even after thousands of years EVER "decides" to EXPLAIN, with PROOF, of WHAT one IS, EXACTLY, and how 'it' ACTUALLY WORKS, EXACTLY.

Until then I will REMAIN OPEN, and follow what I KNOW is ACTUALLY True, Right, AND Correct.

It is uncased-cause of everything that you experienced and what you have not experienced yet.

HOW, EXACTLY, could "your mind" be the cause of EVERY thing that I have experienced and what I have not experienced yet", especially WHEN "your mind" only came into existence WHEN or AFTER 'you' came into existence?

Or, are you saying that 'you' AND "your mind" have ALWAYS EXISTED?

If yes, then 'I' think that 'you' will be VERY SADLY MISTAKEN. But, then again, who AND what EXACTLY are 'you', to you?

Look, ONCE AGAIN, 'you' are VERY CLOSE to thee One and ONLY irrefutable Truth here, which EVERY one else, in this forum, is ALSO, (so this is no great thing), BUT 'the way' you are expressing things is only taking 'you' and "others" FURTHER AWAY from thee One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth of things.

You have ALSO TRIED TO CLAIM that there is NOT BOTH 'determinism/laws of nature' AND 'free choosing mind', in "the system".

It depends on how do you define a system.

I am ONLY COPYING your use of those words, that is WHY they are in quotation marks.

I have PREVIOUSLY ASKED you, for HOW you define 'a system' or 'the system', depending on which way YOU write 'it'.

Let's define the system as the sum of mind and Qualia, Qualia is the stuff that the mind experiences and causes.

So, in other words, EVERY thing.

When you say, 'the system', do you just mean and refer to Everything?

If yes, then I suggest just saying 'Everything' instead. That way this makes it FAR EASIER and SIMPLER for "others" to SEE and UNDERSTAND what 'it' is that 'you' are talking about.

Also, when one uses words in definitions, I found it is much better if that one is able to CLARIFY the definition for ALL of the words in the definition, VERY CLEARLY.

So, if by 'qualia' you just mean the "stuff" that "the mind" experiences and causes, then 'what', EXACTLY do you mean by 'mind'?

Until you start answering and clarifying, soundly AND validly, my clarifying questions posed to you, then you are just putting "your own self" deeper down an illogical spiral, of which the MORE you 'try to' escape from the MORE ILLOGICAL you are coming across.

Look, I asked you what 'the system' , which you mention and refer to here, IS? And, until you START there, the rest of what you are saying will remain completely and utterly ILLOGICAL and NONSENSICAL.

I already defined the system.

Yes, BUT ONLY in this post.

By using the word 'already' you are implying or it could be interpreted that you had done it PREVIOUSLY. Which you OBVIOUSLY had NOT.

Also, I did say, 'soundly AND validly'.

By using the 'mind' word in your definition of 'the system', to some, is NOT a 'sound AND valid' definition. This is because the complete controversy and MISUNDERSTANDING of what 'the mind' is EXACTLY.

[Sculptor]

For what regards the decision, my mind just does it

JUST DOES IT???
That is your argument?

What do you expect? When the situation is clear for you, by knowing available options, making the proper judgment about options, assessment of options, and weighing up the pros and cons, then you are left by the decision.

therefore there are no steps involved in it since making a decision is an ability of the mind.

Completely capricious? No judgement? No assessment? No weighing up the pros and cons??
Really?

These are prior to the decision.

I know your thinking is not as sharp as some, but this might explain why you never make sense.

Does the thing make sense now?

Mind, however, is exposed to the options by experiencing the situation. The mind then decides and resolves the conflict of interest if there is any. Mind finally causes. These three abilities, experiencing, deciding, and causing are the abilities of the mind.

So. No. In fact is does not "Just do it"
In fact the decsion is effected by weighing the causes. The mind literally determines the answer by the examination of all the options?
This is a "process".

Examining the options is prior to the decision.

Yes, the conditions cause the decision. QED that is the conditions determine the decision.

[bahman]

Have you already forgotten that it was you who wrote and said;

You cannot have both in a system.?

If no, then WHY ask, "Both what"?

But, if yes, then the word 'both', which you SAID, "You cannot have both of, in a system", was referring to 'determinism' AND 'choice/free will'.

So, are you back on track now?

REALLY?

If 'my interpretation' of what you are saying and claiming is WRONG here, then CORRECT 'it'. 'it' being 'MY INTERPRETATION' of what you are 'TRYING TO' say and claim here.

Is this CLEAR for you now?

No, you cannot have both in a system. This is against the definition of determinism and free.

LOL
LOL
LOL

When will 'you', human beings, GROW UP and LEARN that what is 'the definition' of some thing to one of 'you' is NOT necessarily 'the definition' of the same thing, to "another" one of 'you'?

ALSO, and by the way, 'the definition' of 'determinism' AND 'free will' MEANS that they BOTH exist, and play parts in the WHOLE, of 'the system' of thee Universe, Itself.

Now, EITHER what you say and claim is ACTUALLY True, Right, AND Correct, or it is NOT, and let us NOT forget that 'you', human beings, have been 'arguing' this 'determinism' OR 'free will' discussion for thousands of years WITHOUT ANY logical conclusion BEING FOUND/UNCOVERED.

So, to me, this FURTHER PROVES that what I SEE and SAY could be thee ACTUAL Truth here is thee ACTUAL Truth, in the end. After all, this view fits in PERFECTLY with EVERY thing else, forming One completely WHOLE, COMPATIBLE UNIFIED view of things.

Believe in what you like.

Determinism is about a chain of events. Free means that your decision is not biased by options. An option is a phenomenon when a chain of events is about to fork. You decide at the moment of fork, choose one path and leave another.

Which FURTHER MAKES what I am SEEING and SAYING even MORE true, right, AND correct.

But only until you STOP BELIEVING what you do now, will you BEGIN to be ABLE to LOOK AT and SEE things, from ANOTHER perspective.

But carry on the way you are and keep EXPRESSING your BELIEFS. That way I keep EXPOSING HOW and WHY HOLDING ONTO BELIEFS only CLOSES 'you' OFF to thee ACTUAL Truth of things.

As I have expressed to 'you' previously "bahman" A LOT of what you are thinking and believing is ACTUALLY VERY CLOSE to thee ACTUAL Truth of things, BUT because you have and are HOLDING ONTO these BELIEFS of yours BEFORE you KNOW what thee One and ONLY Truth ACTUAL IS, you are NOT YET able to SEE HOW nor WHY your views are so close to being Correct. And, when ANY one CHALLENGES or QUESTIONS you on your BELIEFS, you FAIL MISERABLY in your so-called "explanations". As SHOWN and PROVEN by your response to "sculptor's" request to, or expectation of, you, which was; Explain how your mind makes a choice... Take us through the steps!

Your "explanation" was illogical nonsense.

I just gave the definitions for determinism and free will. They are two different things.

AGAIN, that depends on the situation, and what EXACTLY is classed as 'fly/flying'.

Also, are you trying to DEFLECT here?

Fly like a crow?

Do you even think or IMAGINE that it is POSSIBLE for a human being to fly, "like a crow"?

If yes, then HOW?

But if no, then WHY AGAIN say something so ABSURD, ILLOGICAL, AND NONSENSICAL?

This, after all, is a philosophical discussion forum, and NOT ANY of the other discussion forums available, to you.

So you cannot fly. Therefore you fall which is constraint by laws of nature no matter if you are free or not.

[bahman]

BUT, you are TRYING TO CLAIM that this so-called "your mind" thing is NOT affected by the laws of nature.

Of course, my mind is not affected by anything.

LOL
LOL
LOL

I will say this AGAIN, there is NO such thing as a "your mind". UNLESS, OF COURSE, ANY one of 'you', human beings, even after thousands of years EVER "decides" to EXPLAIN, with PROOF, of WHAT one IS, EXACTLY, and how 'it' ACTUALLY WORKS, EXACTLY.

Until then I will REMAIN OPEN, and follow what I KNOW is ACTUALLY True, Right, AND Correct.

There are many minds. Your picture of one mind is false.

It is uncased-cause of everything that you experienced and what you have not experienced yet.

HOW, EXACTLY, could "your mind" be the cause of EVERY thing that I have experienced and what I have not experienced yet", especially WHEN "your mind" only came into existence WHEN or AFTER 'you' came into existence?

Or, are you saying that 'you' AND "your mind" have ALWAYS EXISTED?

If yes, then 'I' think that 'you' will be VERY SADLY MISTAKEN. But, then again, who AND what EXACTLY are 'you', to you?

Look, ONCE AGAIN, 'you' are VERY CLOSE to thee One and ONLY irrefutable Truth here, which EVERY one else, in this forum, is ALSO, (so this is no great thing), BUT 'the way' you are expressing things is only taking 'you' and "others" FURTHER AWAY from thee One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth of things.

My mind right now is causing what you read, my thoughts. There are other minds in control of causing other things.

You have ALSO TRIED TO CLAIM that there is NOT BOTH 'determinism/laws of nature' AND 'free choosing mind', in "the system".

It depends on how do you define a system.

I am ONLY COPYING your use of those words, that is WHY they are in quotation marks.

I have PREVIOUSLY ASKED you, for HOW you define 'a system' or 'the system', depending on which way YOU write 'it'.

Ok.

Let's define the system as the sum of mind and Qualia, Qualia is the stuff that the mind experiences and causes.

So, in other words, EVERY thing.

When you say, 'the system', do you just mean and refer to Everything?

If yes, then I suggest just saying 'Everything' instead. That way this makes it FAR EASIER and SIMPLER for "others" to SEE and UNDERSTAND what 'it' is that 'you' are talking about.

Also, when one uses words in definitions, I found it is much better if that one is able to CLARIFY the definition for ALL of the words in the definition, VERY CLEARLY.

So, if by 'qualia' you just mean the "stuff" that "the mind" experiences and causes, then 'what', EXACTLY do you mean by 'mind'?

The whole is the sum of all minds and Qualia.

Until you start answering and clarifying, soundly AND validly, my clarifying questions posed to you, then you are just putting "your own self" deeper down an illogical spiral, of which the MORE you 'try to' escape from the MORE ILLOGICAL you are coming across.

Look, I asked you what 'the system' , which you mention and refer to here, IS? And, until you START there, the rest of what you are saying will remain completely and utterly ILLOGICAL and NONSENSICAL.

I already defined the system.

Yes, BUT ONLY in this post.

By using the word 'already' you are implying or it could be interpreted that you had done it PREVIOUSLY. Which you OBVIOUSLY had NOT.

Also, I did say, 'soundly AND validly'.

By using the 'mind' word in your definition of 'the system', to some, is NOT a 'sound AND valid' definition. This is because the complete controversy and MISUNDERSTANDING of what 'the mind' is EXACTLY.

Mind is irreducible substance with abilities to experience, decide, and cause.