An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

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Sculptor
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Sculptor »

K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:54 pm
Age wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:45 pm
K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:26 pm

A Determinist lives like he does not have any other choice but to do anything he is doing.
But you also said and claimed that 'nobody' lives like 'that'. So, this means that there is no such thing as a "determinist". Which then means there is NOTHING to base what a determinist 'lives like', correct?
I mean a Determinist should live like that, but that is not possible, so determinism is not correct.
But you do live exactly like that.
What is missing is the notion that you, yourself are a determined causal agent.
For any given moment in time your decision is set by your motivation, and volition.

If time were reversed, with ALL condition the same, you would make the same choice. Otherwise every choice you would ever make would be random - is that what you mean by "free"? random?

So each time you are confronted by a choice you make it to the best of your knowledge and needs. How could it be otherwise?
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Sculptor
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Sculptor »

Choice and determinism are false dichotomies.

We all make choices and those choices are all determined by us.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:00 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:49 am
K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:26 pm A Determinist lives like he does not have any other choice but to do anything he is doing.
I"ve never met one that did.
...And every ideologically- earnest Determinist still chooses to berate people for not choosing to believe in Determinism.

This is not merely hypocrisy, (though, of course, it's also that). It's evidence that even the most ardent Determinist can't find a way to live as if Determinism were true.

Nobody can.
I make thousands of choices everyday. I make them determinedly, as I am determined to get through the day the way I want.
Heh. :D Wrong, yet again. It never fails, it seems.

If you think "I determine to make choices...the way I want" expresses Determinism, then you have not the foggiest idea what the word "Determinism" means.

Here's a definition of Determinism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCGtkDzELAI

You just declared yourself not to be a Determinist, by trying to criticize non-Determinism.
Belinda
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Belinda »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:15 am Choice and determinism are false dichotomies.

We all make choices and those choices are all determined by us.
I noticed that as soon as I read the title of the topic. I chose to let it pass, because it seems to be useless to try to teach people who have not chosen to learn the vocabulary. Also I believe that any intention to reason and aim at truths will be fruitful even when the vocabulary is imprecise.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:19 pm I chose to let it pass...
Heh. :D If you "chose" to let it pass, you're no Determinist.
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:31 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:19 pm I chose to let it pass...
Heh. :D If you "chose" to let it pass, you're no Determinist.
Is your will more dominant than your intellect?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:31 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:19 pm I chose to let it pass...
Heh. :D If you "chose" to let it pass, you're no Determinist.
Is your will more dominant than your intellect?
False dichotomy.
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:45 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:31 pm
Heh. :D If you "chose" to let it pass, you're no Determinist.
Is your will more dominant than your intellect?
False dichotomy.
It may be to you, but most people can tell the difference between will and intellect. Dictionary definitions would do.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:30 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:45 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:41 pm
Is your will more dominant than your intellect?
False dichotomy.
It may be to you, but most people can tell the difference between will and intellect. Dictionary definitions would do.
I didn't say they didn't mean different things. I said they aren't an either-or. You don't have to choose one or the other.

Your intellect is part of what makes up your will...that is, unless you're normally used to willing intellectually-untenable things.
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Age »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:14 am
K1Barin wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:54 pm
Age wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:45 pm

But you also said and claimed that 'nobody' lives like 'that'. So, this means that there is no such thing as a "determinist". Which then means there is NOTHING to base what a determinist 'lives like', correct?
I mean a Determinist should live like that, but that is not possible, so determinism is not correct.
But you do live exactly like that.
What is missing is the notion that you, yourself are a determined causal agent.
For any given moment in time your decision is set by your motivation, and volition.

If time were reversed, with ALL condition the same, you would make the same choice.
This is obvious, but it does not prove the point you are 'trying to' make. Your example here is just rewinding a movie, which OBVIOUSLY could NOT be different.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:14 am Otherwise every choice you would ever make would be random - is that what you mean by "free"? random?
Either way EVERY choice 'you' make is TOTALLY up to 'you'. There is a limited list of choices, which can be chosen from, and when you have grown and matured ENOUGH, then you are Truly FREE to choose from ANY one of those choices.

Unless, OF COURSE, you BELIEVE you can not, and then so you are NOT 'free' AT ALL. 'you' are just being controlled and led along from previous predetermined conditions.
Sculptor wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:14 am So each time you are confronted by a choice you make it to the best of your knowledge and needs. How could it be otherwise?
But only the very young human beings make choices based on 'needs'. 'you', adult human beings, mostly make choices based on completely unnecessary 'wants'.
Age
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Age »

Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:19 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:15 am Choice and determinism are false dichotomies.

We all make choices and those choices are all determined by us.
I noticed that as soon as I read the title of the topic. I chose to let it pass, because it seems to be useless to try to teach people who have not chosen to learn the vocabulary.
Are you here suggesting that you have learned, and thus KNOW, 'the vocabulary' PERFECTLY?

If no, then reread 'the vocabulary' the way you wrote 'it' here.

But if yes, then okay.
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:19 pm Also I believe that any intention to reason and aim at truths will be fruitful even when the vocabulary is imprecise.
Do you mean that any intention to reason and aim at truths will be 'fruitful', or 'fruitless', when the vocabulary is imprecise?
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:54 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:30 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:45 pm
False dichotomy.
It may be to you, but most people can tell the difference between will and intellect. Dictionary definitions would do.
I didn't say they didn't mean different things. I said they aren't an either-or.
But you did NOT say that. As can be CLEARLY PROVED by what you ACTUALLY did write above.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:54 pm You don't have to choose one or the other.

Your intellect is part of what makes up your will...that is, unless you're normally used to willing intellectually-untenable things.
Here is GREAT EXAMPLE of how observers can SEE, so very simply and easily, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things, while LOOKING AT the EXACT SAME thing/words.
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:54 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:30 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:45 pm
False dichotomy.
It may be to you, but most people can tell the difference between will and intellect. Dictionary definitions would do.
I didn't say they didn't mean different things. I said they aren't an either-or. You don't have to choose one or the other.

Your intellect is part of what makes up your will...that is, unless you're normally used to willing intellectually-untenable things.
What I wrote was
Is your will more dominant than your intellect?

Neither did I say they are either / or. The word 'dominant' does not mean either/or.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:14 pm What I wrote was
Is your will more dominant than your intellect?
Neither did I say they are either / or. The word 'dominant' does not mean either/or.
Will and intellect work together. They don't "dominate" each other, because one generally consults one's intellect when one is framing one's will.

So it was an erroneous way to frame the question.
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:37 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:14 pm What I wrote was
Is your will more dominant than your intellect?
Neither did I say they are either / or. The word 'dominant' does not mean either/or.
Will and intellect work together. They don't "dominate" each other, because one generally consults one's intellect when one is framing one's will.

So it was an erroneous way to frame the question.
I said dominant not dominate. You have quotation marks around 'dominate' which is incorrect as I did not say dominate.
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