An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

[K1Barin]

LOL

Okay.

So, which one is it, to you?

Your body is subjected to the laws of nature. Your mind is free. Your mind can however affect your body when there are options for movement of your body.

Explain how your mind makes a choice... Take us through the steps!

Have you seen my other post: My theory for mechanism of making choices.?

[Sculptor]

Your body is subjected to the laws of nature. Your mind is free. Your mind can however affect your body when there are options for movement of your body.

Explain how your mind makes a choice... Take us through the steps!

Have you seen my other post: My theory for mechanism of making choices.?

No.
I asked Bahman, not you.
I wondered how he coud sustain the idea of a mind that can make a choice yet is immutable.

[K1Barin]

Fine, no problem. I just meant there may be steps to make choices, and we still have choices and it's not all deterministic. The post I wrote is a theory for mechanics of choice with a non deterministic step.

[bahman]

LOL

Okay.

So, which one is it, to you?

Your body is subjected to the laws of nature. Your mind is free. Your mind can however affect your body when there are options for movement of your body.

In your opinion, does nature not exert any influence over the mind at all?

Nature does constrain the mind when it comes to the availability of options, one can choose an option that is permissible so-called freedom of will and cannot choose otherwise. But the mind is free to choose between available options so-called free will.

[bahman]

LOL

Okay.

So, which one is it, to you?

Your body is subjected to the laws of nature. Your mind is free. Your mind can however affect your body when there are options for movement of your body.

Explain how your mind makes a choice... Take us through the steps!

For what regards the decision, my mind just does it therefore there are no steps involved in it since making a decision is an ability of the mind. Mind, however, is exposed to the options by experiencing the situation. The mind then decides and resolves the conflict of interest if there is any. Mind finally causes. These three abilities, experiencing, deciding, and causing are the abilities of the mind. They are not reducible to anything else so you cannot say that experiencing is the result of the matter process. The matter process however is needed to form Qualia which can be experienced by the mind. The decision also is not reducible to anything else such as the matter process although the matter process is needed to experience and realize the situation. The same for causation.

I have to add that it is through making a free decision that we can resolve a situation where there is a conflict of interest within. A deterministic (how matter behaves) system cannot resolve any conflict of interest. That is why the free decision is not reducible to anything such as the matter process.

[Sculptor]

Your body is subjected to the laws of nature. Your mind is free. Your mind can however affect your body when there are options for movement of your body.

Explain how your mind makes a choice... Take us through the steps!

For what regards the decision, my mind just does it

JUST DOES IT???
That is your argument?

therefore there are no steps involved in it since making a decision is an ability of the mind.

Completely capricious? No judgement? No assessment? No weighing up the pros and cons??
Really?
I know your thinking is not as sharp as some, but this might explain why you never make sense.

Mind, however, is exposed to the options by experiencing the situation. The mind then decides and resolves the conflict of interest if there is any. Mind finally causes. These three abilities, experiencing, deciding, and causing are the abilities of the mind.

So. No. In fact is does not "Just do it"
In fact the decsion is effected by weighing the causes. The mind literally determines the answer by the examination of all the options?
This is a "process".

They are not reducible to anything else so you cannot say that experiencing is the result of the matter process. The matter process however is needed to form Qualia which can be experienced by the mind. The decision also is not reducible to anything else such as the matter process although the matter process is needed to experience and realize the situation. The same for causation.

I have to add that it is through making a free decision that we can resolve a situation where there is a conflict of interest within. A deterministic (how matter behaves) system cannot resolve any conflict of interest. That is why the free decision is not reducible to anything such as the matter process.

[Age]

You cannot have both in a system.

LOL

Okay.

So, which one is it, to you?

Your body is subjected to the laws of nature. Your mind is free. Your mind can however affect your body when there are options for movement of your body.

LOL There are ALWAYS options for movement of the body. So, there ACTUALLY exists BOTH now, correct?

If this is NOT correct, then WHY?

[Age]

Can you decide what caused the man to fall?

Yes, when you find out the Facts, AFTER the incident.

Yes, but how do you decide which facts are relevant and which facts are irrelevant?

What is 'relevant' and what is 'irrelevant' is solely up to 'you'.

For example, if the cause of the man to fall is the sole reason being sought out here, then what would be decided as being relevant is 'the cause' of the man to fall.

Also, I am NOT YET seeing the relevance of your question here. Will you be more specific in regards to what, exactly, you are wanting to point out or to ascertain here?

[Age]

Your body is subjected to the laws of nature. Your mind is free. Your mind can however affect your body when there are options for movement of your body.

Explain how your mind makes a choice... Take us through the steps!

Have you seen my other post: My theory for mechanism of making choices.?

No.

[Age]

Fine, no problem. I just meant there may be steps to make choices, and we still have choices and it's not all deterministic. The post I wrote is a theory for mechanics of choice with a non deterministic step.

Will you help us out a bit more by informing us of what discussion group and thread that post is in and on what page that post is on?

[Age]

Your body is subjected to the laws of nature. Your mind is free. Your mind can however affect your body when there are options for movement of your body.

In your opinion, does nature not exert any influence over the mind at all?

Nature does constrain the mind when it comes to the availability of options, one can choose an option that is permissible so-called freedom of will and cannot choose otherwise. But the mind is free to choose between available options so-called free will.

So, what EXACTLY is this so-called "system", which you CLAIM can NOT have both.

[bahman]

Explain how your mind makes a choice... Take us through the steps!

For what regards the decision, my mind just does it

JUST DOES IT???
That is your argument?

What do you expect? When the situation is clear for you, by knowing available options, making the proper judgment about options, assessment of options, and weighing up the pros and cons, then you are left by the decision.

therefore there are no steps involved in it since making a decision is an ability of the mind.

Completely capricious? No judgement? No assessment? No weighing up the pros and cons??
Really?

These are prior to the decision.

I know your thinking is not as sharp as some, but this might explain why you never make sense.

Does the thing make sense now?

Mind, however, is exposed to the options by experiencing the situation. The mind then decides and resolves the conflict of interest if there is any. Mind finally causes. These three abilities, experiencing, deciding, and causing are the abilities of the mind.

So. No. In fact is does not "Just do it"
In fact the decsion is effected by weighing the causes. The mind literally determines the answer by the examination of all the options?
This is a "process".

Examining the options is prior to the decision.

[bahman]

LOL

Okay.

So, which one is it, to you?

Your body is subjected to the laws of nature. Your mind is free. Your mind can however affect your body when there are options for movement of your body.

LOL There are ALWAYS options for movement of the body. So, there ACTUALLY exists BOTH now, correct?

You don't read carefully. I said that you can move your body when there are options. Regardless, the movement of your body is restricted by laws of nature.

If this is NOT correct, then WHY?

You cannot stop falling when you are falling down from a building? Could you do otherwise?

[bahman]

In your opinion, does nature not exert any influence over the mind at all?

Nature does constrain the mind when it comes to the availability of options, one can choose an option that is permissible so-called freedom of will and cannot choose otherwise. But the mind is free to choose between available options so-called free will.

So, what EXACTLY is this so-called "system", which you CLAIM can NOT have both.

Your body for example. Its motion is subjected to the laws of nature.

[Age]

Your body is subjected to the laws of nature. Your mind is free. Your mind can however affect your body when there are options for movement of your body.

Explain how your mind makes a choice... Take us through the steps!

For what regards the decision, my mind just does it therefore there are no steps involved in it since making a decision is an ability of the mind.

In other words, you do NOT YET KNOW.

Also, your sentence does NOT logically follow either.

Mind, however, is exposed to the options by experiencing the situation. The mind then decides and resolves the conflict of interest if there is any.

This explains NOTHING AT ALL.

Mind finally causes.

The question posed to you was; Explain how your mind makes a choice... Take us through the steps!

Yet your "explanation" so far is;

Mind is exposed to options.
Mind just makes decisions.
Mind finally causes.

Which, AGAIN, is saying/explaining absolutely NOTHING AT ALL.

I suggest you learn and/or find out what the Mind is EXACTLY, FIRST, explain what the Mind IS, and then START from there.

These three abilities, experiencing, deciding, and causing are the abilities of the mind. They are not reducible to anything else so you cannot say that experiencing is the result of the matter process.

But experiencing IS the result of the matter process. The matter actually being the senses, of the physical body, generally known as the human body.

The matter process however is needed to form Qualia which can be experienced by the mind.

And what AGAIN is 'the mind', and how EXACTLY does 'it' work (besides 'it just does')?

The decision also is not reducible to anything else such as the matter process although the matter process is needed to experience and realize the situation. The same for causation.

LOL You just got through "explaining" to us, only two sentences back, that 'experiencing' and 'causing' "are NOT reducible to ANY thing else" AND "so you can NOT say that 'experiencing' is the result of the matter process". But now you are saying, "although the matter process is NEEDED to 'experience' and to 'realize', the situation. The same also applies to 'causation'.

Are you able to SEE the CONTRADICTION/S here?

I have to add that it is through making a free decision that we can resolve a situation where there is a conflict of interest within.

When you say, "within" here, what EXACTLY are you referring to?

See, to me, the ONLY situation where there is a so-called "conflict of interest" here could be 'within' 'you', human beings.

Also, what is a 'free decision', and what is that 'decision' 'free' from EXACTLY? And, what other kinds of 'decisions' are there?

A deterministic (how matter behaves) system cannot resolve any conflict of interest.

Will you provide an example of a 'conflict of interest' outside of one's own thinking?

Also, if there is a so-called "deterministic system", which you say can NOT contain 'free will' or 'the mind', then what OTHER "system" could there be and what is that "system" called, to you, which is separated, and which does contain what you call "your mind" and "free decisions"?

Also, how EXACTLY are these two different and separate systems" separated, EXACTLY?

That is why the free decision is not reducible to anything such as the matter process.

So, are you here 'trying to' suggest that 'a mind', without ANY 'matter process' AT ALL, is able to exist and make so-called "free" decisions?

If yes, then what POSSIBLE 'decision' could "this mind" make? And, what POSSIBLE influence could that 'decision' have?

OBVIOUSLY, if NO 'matter process' is NEEDED, then these "free decisions" could be made with NO 'matter' AT ALL, of which to cause 'an influence' on or over. Which is just too ABSURD to even imagine.