An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"

[Immanuel Can]

What I wrote was Neither did I say they are either / or. The word 'dominant' does not mean either/or.

Will and intellect work together. They don't "dominate" each other, because one generally consults one's intellect when one is framing one's will.

So it was an erroneous way to frame the question.

I said dominant not dominate. You have quotation marks around 'dominate' which is incorrect as I did not say dominate.

No difference.

People ordinary use their intellect to decide their will. It's not like the two are inversely proportional, or oppose one another.

[Belinda]

Will and intellect work together. They don't "dominate" each other, because one generally consults one's intellect when one is framing one's will.

So it was an erroneous way to frame the question.

I said dominant not dominate. You have quotation marks around 'dominate' which is incorrect as I did not say dominate.

No difference.

People ordinary use their intellect to decide their will. It's not like the two are inversely proportional, or oppose one another.

It does matter that one admits to one's error.

[Immanuel Can]

I said dominant not dominate. You have quotation marks around 'dominate' which is incorrect as I did not say dominate.

No difference.
People ordinary use their intellect to decide their will. It's not like the two are inversely proportional, or oppose one another.

It does matter that one admits to one's error.

Of course. And if that was what was intended, no problem.

[Sculptor]

Choice and determinism are false dichotomies.

We all make choices and those choices are all determined by us.

I noticed that as soon as I read the title of the topic. I chose to let it pass, because it seems to be useless to try to teach people who have not chosen to learn the vocabulary. Also I believe that any intention to reason and aim at truths will be fruitful even when the vocabulary is imprecise.

Take it up with Immanuel couldn't if he tried

[Belinda]

Choice and determinism are false dichotomies.

We all make choices and those choices are all determined by us.

I noticed that as soon as I read the title of the topic. I chose to let it pass, because it seems to be useless to try to teach people who have not chosen to learn the vocabulary. Also I believe that any intention to reason and aim at truths will be fruitful even when the vocabulary is imprecise.

Take it up with Immanuel couldn't if he tried

If I can learn so can he.Some people are hard nuts to crack as they have longtime habits of belief. Others are all over the place with their ideas and badly need a professional tutor to guide their studies. Some can't think of anything better than science and logic.

[Sculptor]

I noticed that as soon as I read the title of the topic. I chose to let it pass, because it seems to be useless to try to teach people who have not chosen to learn the vocabulary. Also I believe that any intention to reason and aim at truths will be fruitful even when the vocabulary is imprecise.

Take it up with Immanuel couldn't if he tried

If I can learn so can he.Some people are hard nuts to crack as they have longtime habits of belief. Others are all over the place with their ideas and badly need a professional tutor to guide their studies. Some can't think of anything better than science and logic.

Belief tends to be self justifying. Once you put yourself on the path of accepting what you want to think to be the truth is the truth, then there is nothing such as facts of evidence or even reason that can get you to turn back.
I have been there. Life was difficult for me when I was 13, and I chose to believe in god. No one could say a thing that I could not invent and answer for.
IN the end time past, my community of like mnded persons frittered away, and the path just got thinner and thinner. The only way was back.

[Immanuel Can]

Take it up with Immanuel couldn't if he tried

Grammar not good. Sculpy make mistake.

No use period, and create run-on. Ug.

[Belinda]

Take it up with Immanuel couldn't if he tried

If I can learn so can he.Some people are hard nuts to crack as they have longtime habits of belief. Others are all over the place with their ideas and badly need a professional tutor to guide their studies. Some can't think of anything better than science and logic.

Belief tends to be self justifying. Once you put yourself on the path of accepting what you want to think to be the truth is the truth, then there is nothing such as facts of evidence or even reason that can get you to turn back.
I have been there. Life was difficult for me when I was 13, and I chose to believe in god. No one could say a thing that I could not invent and answer for.
IN the end time past, my community of like mnded persons frittered away, and the path just got thinner and thinner. The only way was back.

Sorry for the wee boy you were but I am glad to hear that you were a ready learner then, and you have learned how to learn. Some people have not learned how to be sceptical.

[Sculptor]

If I can learn so can he.Some people are hard nuts to crack as they have longtime habits of belief. Others are all over the place with their ideas and badly need a professional tutor to guide their studies. Some can't think of anything better than science and logic.

Belief tends to be self justifying. Once you put yourself on the path of accepting what you want to think to be the truth is the truth, then there is nothing such as facts of evidence or even reason that can get you to turn back.
I have been there. Life was difficult for me when I was 13, and I chose to believe in god. No one could say a thing that I could not invent and answer for.
IN the end time past, my community of like mnded persons frittered away, and the path just got thinner and thinner. The only way was back.

Sorry for the wee boy you were but I am glad to hear that you were a ready learner then, and you have learned how to learn. Some people have not learned how to be sceptical.

Skepticism is the default.

[K1Barin]

If there is ANY one who truly BELIEVES that EVERY thing is choice, then please come forward and explain what 'it' IS, EXACTLY, that you BELIEVE is true.

If there is ANY one who truly BELIEVES that EVERY thing is determined, then please come forward and explain what 'it' IS, EXACTLY, that you BELIEVE is true.

Until then what is OBVIOUS is that where matter IS AT, at ANY given moment, then that was pre-determined, by previous actions, or causation, itself - 'determinism'. And, matter has formed into a shape, known as 'animal form', which has the ability to choose - 'free will'.

BOTH 'free will' AND 'determinism' play a part in Life and Existence.

This can NOT be refuted.

Now, if ANY one wants to disagree or dispute this FACT, then feel FREE TO. But that is about all they can do. Facts and thee Truth of things, speak for themselves.

I waited for a response until now, but apparently no one believes in all choice nor all determinism. I don't know, but the issue of choice and determinism is a historical discussion in philosophy that goes back to at least twelve centuries ago. If no one believed in anything but some choice and some determinism, then what was all this discussion about.

Maybe this issue is solved before and I don't know about it. Then please tell me who solved it and when and how. Or maybe just nobody dares to face contradiction with her/himself.

[Scott Mayers]

...

I waited for a response until now, but apparently no one believes in all choice nor all determinism. I don't know, but the issue of choice and determinism is a historical discussion in philosophy that goes back to at least twelve centuries ago. If no one believed in anything but some choice and some determinism, then what was all this discussion about.

Maybe this issue is solved before and I don't know about it. Then please tell me who solved it and when and how. Or maybe just nobody dares to face contradiction with her/himself.

This sounds like something I might have written before.

That statement is ambiguous where emphasis in your summary conclusion needs it in context. Are you saying ,
(1) apparently no one (here) believes in all choice nor all determinism.
(2) no one (here) believes in "all choice" nor "all determinism".
(3) ...no one believes in all choice nor all determinism
...?

The "..." means there can be more different possible interpretations with different accents that I am not thinking of. I cannot be sure whether we can share the same interpretation of accent since different cultures may accent things differently. But the point is that your explanation is too broad to interpret as written but...

If no one believed in anything but some choice and some determinism, then what was all this discussion about[?]"

...you appear to be implying that [some or all] choices do not exist and [some nor all] determination does not exist.

"Choice" implicitly means in context to this debate, "Nature does not have places where optional universes exist for each possibility",and....
"Determinism" means, "Nature has strictly one specific universe (where the laws of physics assure one unique outcome for each preceding initial conditions."

But, although the word, "choice" seems completely distinct from "determinism" in the above literal implied definitions I just gave, "Choice" is "Non-Determinism" as "Determinism" is "Not-Choice" so if we let C = choice, then Determinism = non-C.

Your statement is logically, as I am interpreting it, is

It is Not the case that "Choices" or "non-Choices" exist as a third option. But you also indicated earlier that your conclusion is only binary, not trinary. Thus you have to accept at least one of these can only be true.

Note that Not[C or not-C] == not-C and C [De Morgans law: the negation of the whole statement involving any number of variables is equivalent to negating each variable then negating the connective ('or' to 'and' OR 'and' to 'or'). So you are attempting to assert something that means,

Not-C, Not-Non-C, Not-[C and not-C], and Not-[Not C or C].

For some cases this can be true but has to imply some external world that is not even remotely like ours exists that has different kinds of behavior we cannot describe.When you work out the logic, it still reduces to a contradiction. The above formula reduces to,

C and not-C [which is equivalent to D and not-D]

[Belinda]

If there is ANY one who truly BELIEVES that EVERY thing is choice, then please come forward and explain what 'it' IS, EXACTLY, that you BELIEVE is true.

If there is ANY one who truly BELIEVES that EVERY thing is determined, then please come forward and explain what 'it' IS, EXACTLY, that you BELIEVE is true.

Until then what is OBVIOUS is that where matter IS AT, at ANY given moment, then that was pre-determined, by previous actions, or causation, itself - 'determinism'. And, matter has formed into a shape, known as 'animal form', which has the ability to choose - 'free will'.

BOTH 'free will' AND 'determinism' play a part in Life and Existence.

This can NOT be refuted.

Now, if ANY one wants to disagree or dispute this FACT, then feel FREE TO. But that is about all they can do. Facts and thee Truth of things, speak for themselves.

I waited for a response until now, but apparently no one believes in all choice nor all determinism. I don't know, but the issue of choice and determinism is a historical discussion in philosophy that goes back to at least twelve centuries ago. If no one believed in anything but some choice and some determinism, then what was all this discussion about.

Maybe this issue is solved before and I don't know about it. Then please tell me who solved it and when and how. Or maybe just nobody dares to face contradiction with her/himself.

Your interest in the question of FreeWill or determinism is justified and many people here are interested.
The reason I did not reply is that choice is not the alternative to determinism. People who believe in strong determinism choose. My dog chooses.

The alternative to determinism is not choice but Free Will.
I recommend https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/book ... gKlXvD_BwE
How Free Are You is an inexpensive paperback.

[K1Barin]

Your statement is logically, as I am interpreting it, is

It is Not the case that "Choices" or "non-Choices" exist as a third option. But you also indicated earlier that your conclusion is only binary, not trinary. Thus you have to accept at least one of these can only be true.

Sorry for my lack of proper English accent. And thank you all for all the patience and hard work trying to understand me.

Anyway. I have two binary questions in mind,

1- Is it "all choice" , or is it "not all choice"? In other words, is it "all choice", or is it "some determinism" ?

2- Is it "all determinism", or is it "not all determinism"? In other words, is it "all determinism", or is it "some choice" ?

Now I have reasoned that both "all choice" and "all determinism" are contradictory to themselves in two separate discussions, and therefore concluded it must be: it is "some choice and some determinism".

Again thank you for your time and effort.

[Age]

If there is ANY one who truly BELIEVES that EVERY thing is choice, then please come forward and explain what 'it' IS, EXACTLY, that you BELIEVE is true.

If there is ANY one who truly BELIEVES that EVERY thing is determined, then please come forward and explain what 'it' IS, EXACTLY, that you BELIEVE is true.

Until then what is OBVIOUS is that where matter IS AT, at ANY given moment, then that was pre-determined, by previous actions, or causation, itself - 'determinism'. And, matter has formed into a shape, known as 'animal form', which has the ability to choose - 'free will'.

BOTH 'free will' AND 'determinism' play a part in Life and Existence.

This can NOT be refuted.

Now, if ANY one wants to disagree or dispute this FACT, then feel FREE TO. But that is about all they can do. Facts and thee Truth of things, speak for themselves.

I waited for a response until now, but apparently no one believes in all choice nor all determinism. I don't know,

You do not know what, exactly?

What you believe or what is actually True, Right, and Correct, or something else?

but the issue of choice and determinism is a historical discussion in philosophy that goes back to at least twelve centuries ago.

And the reason 'you', human beings, in the days when this was being written, were STILL having these "this OR that" discussions is because of your BELIEFS, and because 'you' still exist under a "educational system" that teaches and reinforces the idea of 'debating', that is; choosing a side and fighting for that side.

'you', human beings, have NOT YET learned, and thus NOR taught, the art of being Just able to decipher Truth from Falsehoods, Right from Wrong, nor what is Correct from Incorrect.

What 'you' have been taught, and are teaching, is to BELIEVE some things are true, and to fight/argue for that position. As can be CLEARLY OBSERVED throughout 'your' human history.

If no one believed in anything but some choice and some determinism, then what was all this discussion about.

But 'you', human beings, do BELIEVE things, and this is what all those worthless and useless discussions have been about.

The very reason WHY 'you' have been mis/behaving that way I explained above.

What those 'one OR the other' discussions, which 'you', human beings have been quarreling over for centuries now, were to SHOW future human beings just how UNNECESSARY those types of discussions WERE.

Maybe this issue is solved before and I don't know about it.

Do not feel alone. Just about EVERY human being in the days when this was being written were NOT YET AWARE of the 'solution' either.

But learning HOW to overcome your OWN made up and well supported BELIEFS is a process. Of which some are much more slower than "others" are at it.

Just remember some people still BELIEVE the earth is flat.

Then please tell me who solved it and when and how. Or maybe just nobody dares to face contradiction with her/himself.

I solved 'it'.

When I worked out HOW and WHY I BELIEVED things.

And, HOW I worked this out was just through Honesty, Openness, and a SERIOUS Want to change, for the better.

HOW is the solution to ALL 'problems'.

[Age]

If there is ANY one who truly BELIEVES that EVERY thing is choice, then please come forward and explain what 'it' IS, EXACTLY, that you BELIEVE is true.

If there is ANY one who truly BELIEVES that EVERY thing is determined, then please come forward and explain what 'it' IS, EXACTLY, that you BELIEVE is true.

Until then what is OBVIOUS is that where matter IS AT, at ANY given moment, then that was pre-determined, by previous actions, or causation, itself - 'determinism'. And, matter has formed into a shape, known as 'animal form', which has the ability to choose - 'free will'.

BOTH 'free will' AND 'determinism' play a part in Life and Existence.

This can NOT be refuted.

Now, if ANY one wants to disagree or dispute this FACT, then feel FREE TO. But that is about all they can do. Facts and thee Truth of things, speak for themselves.

I waited for a response until now, but apparently no one believes in all choice nor all determinism. I don't know, but the issue of choice and determinism is a historical discussion in philosophy that goes back to at least twelve centuries ago. If no one believed in anything but some choice and some determinism, then what was all this discussion about.

Maybe this issue is solved before and I don't know about it. Then please tell me who solved it and when and how. Or maybe just nobody dares to face contradiction with her/himself.

Your interest in the question of FreeWill or determinism is justified and many people here are interested.
The reason I did not reply is that choice is not the alternative to determinism. People who believe in strong determinism choose. My dog chooses.

The alternative to determinism is not choice but Free Will.
I recommend https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/book ... gKlXvD_BwE
How Free Are You is an inexpensive paperback.

If you claim the alternative to determinism is not choice but Free Will, then surely you are able to inform us of what 'Free Will' is to you, correct?

If this is correct, then will you?

If no, then WHY NOT?

From what I have observed, a big reason WHY 'you', human beings, in the days when this was being written, were STILL CONFUSED over, and STILL DISCUSSING/DEBATING, this 'free will/determinism' little matter is just because of how you, each and individually, are defining those words.