A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by SteveKlinko »

This is a script for a possible Audio or Video presentation. The lettered titles indicate the main thought in the corresponding group of script lines. I think that on further consideration this double-spaced text version might actually convey the message better than an Audio or a Video.


A) Science Has No explanation

It all started one day when I thought it might be fun to figure out how we See.

I read what the Scientists and the Philosophers had to say.

I studied Eye Physiology and Brain Physiology.

I learned exactly how the Eye, Optic Nerve, and Visual Cortex work.

But I was disappointed, because all this understanding did not explain how we See.

After 25 years of study, I had to face the fact that Science had no Explanation for how we See.


B) Think In New Ways

I discovered that the only thing Science knew for sure was that if certain Neurons fire we can have an Experience of Seeing.

It was reasonable to speculate that there must be something about the Neurons that produced this Experience of Seeing.

To test this, Science has Probed, Measured, Scanned, and Mapped the Brain in every conceivable way.

And after a hundred years, HUGE progress was made with understanding the Neural Activity that happens while Seeing.

But after all this time, Science has made exactly ZERO progress with understanding the Conscious Experience of Seeing.

Ironically, the Seeing part of how we See was still a total mystery.

It became clear to me that it was time to start thinking in New Ways.

But it is difficult to teach people to think in New Ways.

And I found that I can only Nudge people in the right direction, with the hope that they will eventually understand the New Ways.


C) Insight From Floating Lights

So here is a Nudge toward New Ways of thinking, in the form of a little story about Floating Lights.

A lot of times I fall asleep on the couch in my Stereo room at night.

I have multiple Preamps, Power Amps, Processors, and Converters with different Colored LED panel Lights.

It relaxes me to think about these Lights when I’m going to sleep.

The LEDs seem to float “Out There” in space as Colored points of Light punching through the darkness.

It’s just Me … the LEDs … and the Darkness.

At first, because I knew the LEDs were across the room, my Experience was that they really were across the room.

Eventually, I realized that I could Experience the Lights as being close to me.

I could even make them seem like they were located directly in front of my face.

I assumed this was just my Imagination.


D) Conscious Space

But after a while, I realized that this might not be my Imagination.

It was, in fact, the first evidence that I might not be Seeing the Physical LEDs, but rather I was Seeing some kind of Conscious Experience in my Mind.

The Illusion has always been that the Lights were “Out There”.

But the reality is that the Lights were never “Out There” in the first place.

I was Seeing what I call Conscious Lights.

These Conscious Lights were created by my Mind and projected in front of my face.

It seemed Logical to speculate that the Conscious Lights existed in some new conceptual place, which I call Conscious Space.

Next, it became Logical to speculate that each individual Conscious Mind might consist of a little chunk of this Conscious Space.

So we each have our own chunk of Conscious Space, and this is where our separate Conscious Experiences happen.


E) Conscious Experience

Let’s think about Seeing Color and especially let’s think about Seeing Red.

Instead of Seeing Red I like to say we Experience Redness.

This helps point attention to the Redness Experience in the Mind, and not to the Red Electromagnetic Wave phenomenon.

The Redness Experience is in Conscious Space and the Red Electromagnetic Wave is in Physical Space.

The argument is similar for any other Color or combination of Colors, including shades of gray from Black to White.

The Visually impaired can consider the Conscious Experience of other things, like the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, or the Touch of a Rough Surface.


F) The Inter Mind

Science has mapped the various Sensory inputs from the Eyes, Ears, Tongue, Nose, and Skin to specific areas of the Cortex.

So, for example we can say:

1 Neural Activity for Red happens in the Cortex.

2 A Redness Experience happens in the Conscious Mind.

But we have a dilemma because this question screams out at us:

How does the Neural Activity produce the Redness Experience?

From a Systems Engineering point of view there is a missing processing stage between the Neural Activity and the Conscious Experience.

I call the missing processing stage, the Inter Mind, because it is an Interconnecting stage between the Physical Mind, and the Conscious Mind, where Physical Mind means the Brain.

We can now imagine a three stage diagram of Mind that shows the Physical Mind connected to the Inter Mind and the Inter Mind connected to the Conscious Mind.

I call this diagram the Inter Mind Model of Consciousness.

The Inter Mind does the Processing to Translate Neural Activity in the Physical Mind into the Conscious Experience in the Conscious Mind.

The Inter Mind functionality might exist partly in the Physical Mind and partly in the Conscious Mind.

But it might exist only in the Physical Mind or only in the Conscious Mind.

Physicalists will insist it is completely in the Physical Mind.

One thing for sure is that the functionality of an Inter Mind must exist somewhere.


G) Physiology of Seeing

Let’s talk about the Physiology of Seeing.

Physical Light from the External Scene enters the Eye and is focused onto the Retina.

The Energy from the Physical Light activates millions of Light Receptors that send signals to the Visual Cortex.

The Visual Cortex performs processing using a cascading, feedback, network of millions of Activated Neurons.

Since all this Neural Activity is Correlated with the Physical Light, I like to call it, the Neural Light.

But we don’t See this Neural Light.

We See a Conscious Light Scene in the Mind that is Correlated with the Neural Light.

The Conscious Light Scene cannot be found in the Physical Mind.

I like to speculate that the whole Conscious Light Scene is in Conscious Space.


H) Reconstruction and Overlay Processing

But let’s talk about what the Physical Mind is actually doing.

The Physical Mind seems to deconstruct the Scene we are looking at with the goal of detecting features of the Scene like lines, edges, motion, and color.

The highest stages seem to be for image recognition.

The lower stages seem to be for control of eye focus, convergence, and target tracking.

There are some edge enhancement and shading effects that are generated in the lower stages that can be Experienced in the Conscious Light Scene.

If there is a damaged area in the lower stages, then an equivalent blacked out area will appear in the Conscious Light Scene.

If there is damage to the Color areas, then the Color Experience will be impaired.

It seems that the Conscious Light Scene that we See, must consist of an Overlay of all the Visual Cortex processing stages.

The deconstructed Cortex information must be Reconstructed into a Coherent Conscious Light Scene.

Unfortunately, there is no known mechanism in the Physical Mind that does this Overlay and Reconstruction Processing.

This missing Processing is sometimes called the Binding Problem.

Since the purpose of the Inter Mind is to Translate the Neural Activity into the Conscious Light Scene, it is Logical to propose that the Inter Mind must perform the Overlay and Reconstruction processing.


I) Three Types of Light

Let’s think about the three types of Light.

First, there are the Electromagnetic Waves, in Physical Space, which I call Physical Light.

Second, there is the Neural Activity, also in Physical Space, which I call Neural Light.

Third, there is the Conscious Experience, in Conscious Space, which I call Conscious Light.

These different Types of Light exist at different stages in the Seeing process.

We have never Seen the Physical Light or the Neural Light.

We have always only Seen the Conscious Light that is in our Conscious Minds.


J) An Important Realization

Since the Conscious Light is in our Conscious Minds we can say the Light is our own internal personal Light.

Even if you are a Physicalist and believe the Conscious Light is in the Neurons, it is still your own internal personal Light.

Since the Conscious Light is internal to us, we can say the Conscious Light is partly what we are.

We can say: We are that Light.

For me, this was the most important Realization I have ever had about my own Mind and Being.
Age
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by Age »

SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:13 pm
For me, this was the most important Realization I have ever had about my own Mind and Being.
Why is 'that' the most important Realization? And, what is the difference between 'realization' with a small 'r' and 'Realization' with a capital 'R'?

Also, who and/or what is the 'thing' that has its own Mind and Being? And, how many of these 'things' are there?
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RCSaunders
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by RCSaunders »

SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:13 pm But it is difficult to teach people to think in New Ways.
Why do you need to teach others to do anything? Why not just present your ideas if you think they are of value and let others decide if they find any value in them. If what you think is truly new, it will probably not be well received, but so long as you know it is true, so what?
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:13 pm This helps point attention to the Redness Experience in the Mind, and not to the Red Electromagnetic Wave phenomenon.
I think you, like most who consider the nature of seeing color, since Locke, forget seeing colors came first, and the electromagnetic wave phenomena was discovered (actually invented as a metaphorical explanation for) as the nature of light. If no entity had ever emitted, transmitted, or reflected light, nothing would ever had been seen. Conscious seeing of light is not some kind of "light in my head," it is seeing the light from some entity. I cannot see any light if there is no light to see, not in my head, consciousness, or anywhere else.
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:13 pm The Redness Experience is in Conscious Space and the Red Electromagnetic Wave is in Physical Space.
"Consciousness space?" I don't think just making stuff up is a very good explanation.
jayjacobus
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by jayjacobus »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:48 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:13 pm But it is difficult to teach people to think in New Ways.
Why do you need to teach others to do anything? Why not just present your ideas if you think they are of value and let others decide if they find any value in them. If what you think is truly new, it will probably not be well received, but so long as you know it is true, so what?
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:13 pm This helps point attention to the Redness Experience in the Mind, and not to the Red Electromagnetic Wave phenomenon.
I think you, like most who consider the nature of seeing color, since Locke, forget seeing colors came first, and the electromagnetic wave phenomena was discovered (actually invented as a metaphorical explanation for) as the nature of light. If no entity had ever emitted, transmitted, or reflected light, nothing would ever had been seen. Conscious seeing of light is not some kind of "light in my head," it is seeing the light from some entity. I cannot see any light if there is no light to see, not in my head, consciousness, or anywhere else.
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:13 pm The Redness Experience is in Conscious Space and the Red Electromagnetic Wave is in Physical Space.
"Consciousness space?" I don't think just making stuff up is a very good explanation.
Electromagnetic energy has no color outside the brain. The brain converts light waves into colors and images. Every sense that the mind perceives is a representation created by the brain.
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RCSaunders
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by RCSaunders »

jayjacobus wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:25 am Electromagnetic energy has no color outside the brain.
Well, electromagnetic energy certainly has no color inside the brain.
jayjacobus wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:25 am The brain converts light waves into colors and images.
Yeast converts sugar into alcohol. The process can be perfectly explained. Unless you can explain the process by which the brain supposedly converts light waves into colors and images you are simply asserting what you would like to be true with no evidence whatsoever. To clam any process produces a particular result it is necessary explain exactly how that process works or you are just making stuff up.
jayjacobus wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:25 am Every sense that the mind perceives is a representation created by the brain.
The brain doesn't create anything. It only responds to neurological input making it available to be perceived. There are no senses, colors, sounds, feelings, smells or tastes or images in the brain, just chemical/electrical events.
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by jayjacobus »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:02 am
jayjacobus wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:25 am Electromagnetic energy has no color outside the brain.
Well, electromagnetic energy certainly has no color inside the brain.
jayjacobus wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:25 am The brain converts light waves into colors and images.
Yeast converts sugar into alcohol. The process can be perfectly explained. Unless you can explain the process by which the brain supposedly converts light waves into colors and images you are simply asserting what you would like to be true with no evidence whatsoever. To clam any process produces a particular result it is necessary explain exactly how that process works or you are just making stuff up.
jayjacobus wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:25 am Every sense that the mind perceives is a representation created by the brain.
The brain doesn't create anything. It only responds to neurological input making it available to be perceived. There are no senses, colors, sounds, feelings, smells or tastes or images in the brain, just chemical/electrical events.
There are only unclear inputs in the environment. The brain clarifies the inputs by changing them into images, smells, tastes, tactile senses and sounds. TV's don't produce images and sounds. TV's produces energy which the brain converts to images and sounds.

Your thinking seems to be a form of naive realism.
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RCSaunders
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by RCSaunders »

jayjacobus wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:02 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:02 am
jayjacobus wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:25 am Electromagnetic energy has no color outside the brain.
Well, electromagnetic energy certainly has no color inside the brain.
jayjacobus wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:25 am The brain converts light waves into colors and images.
Yeast converts sugar into alcohol. The process can be perfectly explained. Unless you can explain the process by which the brain supposedly converts light waves into colors and images you are simply asserting what you would like to be true with no evidence whatsoever. To clam any process produces a particular result it is necessary explain exactly how that process works or you are just making stuff up.
jayjacobus wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:25 am Every sense that the mind perceives is a representation created by the brain.
The brain doesn't create anything. It only responds to neurological input making it available to be perceived. There are no senses, colors, sounds, feelings, smells or tastes or images in the brain, just chemical/electrical events.
There are only unclear inputs in the environment. The brain clarifies the inputs by changing them into images, smells, tastes, tactile senses and sounds. TV's don't produce images and sounds. TV's produces energy which the brain converts to images and sounds.

Your thinking seems to be a form of naive realism.
Your, "thinking," seems to be a form of, "sophisticated," academic nonsense, sophistry on stilts.
jayjacobus
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by jayjacobus »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:32 pm
jayjacobus wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:02 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:02 am
Well, electromagnetic energy certainly has no color inside the brain.

Yeast converts sugar into alcohol. The process can be perfectly explained. Unless you can explain the process by which the brain supposedly converts light waves into colors and images you are simply asserting what you would like to be true with no evidence whatsoever. To clam any process produces a particular result it is necessary explain exactly how that process works or you are just making stuff up.

The brain doesn't create anything. It only responds to neurological input making it available to be perceived. There are no senses, colors, sounds, feelings, smells or tastes or images in the brain, just chemical/electrical events.
There are only unclear inputs in the environment. The brain clarifies the inputs by changing them into images, smells, tastes, tactile senses and sounds. TV's don't produce images and sounds. TV's produces energy which the brain converts to images and sounds.

Your thinking seems to be a form of naive realism.
Your, "thinking," seems to be a form of, "sophisticated," academic nonsense, sophistry on stilts.
No, I know that representative realism is a scientific fact.
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RCSaunders
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by RCSaunders »

jayjacobus wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:11 pm No, I know that representative realism is a scientific fact.
"Scientific fact?" Which science would that be? Astrology? Alchemy? Scientism? Platonic realism? Psychobabble? What?

Since it's a, "science," you are of course prepared to present, or at least refer to, the examinable evidence for it, aren't you.
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by Walker »

You may find this interesting.

The Rainbow Body
https://www.lionsroar.com/what-is-rainbow-body/
jayjacobus
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by jayjacobus »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:30 pm
jayjacobus wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:11 pm No, I know that representative realism is a scientific fact.
"Scientific fact?" Which science would that be? Astrology? Alchemy? Scientism? Platonic realism? Psychobabble? What?

Since it's a, "science," you are of course prepared to present, or at least refer to, the examinable evidence for it, aren't you.
You can not determine smells based on molecules because molecules have no smell but the brain represents molecules as having smells. So, if your nose senses a lemon molecule, you would not know what that was unless your brain converted it into a smell. The smell is the brains representation of the lemon.

The same is true of images, sounds, tactile senses and tastes. None exist in the world but all have a representation created by the brain.

Science has determined that none of the inputs have an understandable meaning without the brain.
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by popeye1945 »

It is a biological readout, there is in the world without a conscious subject no things/objects, apparent reality is a biological reaction to the fibrational wave frequencies we can sense. The apparent reality is an emergent quality of biological reaction.
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by RCSaunders »

jayjacobus wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:59 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:30 pm
jayjacobus wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:11 pm No, I know that representative realism is a scientific fact.
"Scientific fact?" Which science would that be? Astrology? Alchemy? Scientism? Platonic realism? Psychobabble? What?

Since it's a, "science," you are of course prepared to present, or at least refer to, the examinable evidence for it, aren't you.
You can not determine smells based on molecules because molecules have no smell but the brain represents molecules as having smells. So, if your nose senses a lemon molecule, you would not know what that was unless your brain converted it into a smell. The smell is the brains representation of the lemon.

The same is true of images, sounds, tactile senses and tastes. None exist in the world but all have a representation created by the brain.

Science has determined that none of the inputs have an understandable meaning without the brain.
And you are prepared to explain how the, "brain," knows beforehand exactly how all those, "inputs," should be organized to turned them into intelligeable experiences that accurately represent what is perceived. I'll consider your explanation when you have done that.

In the meantime, since it is being assumed the colors I see are just made-up by the brain (though no one is interested in explaining how that is accomplished), and all I see is nothing more than patches and configurations of color, when I look in a mirror and see my head, all I'm seeing a bunch of colors organized in a certain way I call my head. But since that is all it is, and not actually something, "out there," and the brain that is supposed to be creating all that I see is supposed to be inside that non-existent head, how .... If you can think, you can see the problem. Either the head I see is a real thing exactly as it looks, or there is no head, no brain, and nothing to make up what is supposedly seen.
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by RCSaunders »

jayjacobus wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:11 pm Your thinking seems to be a form of naive realism.

I know that representative realism is a scientific fact.
There is something insidiously wrong with the necessity to disparage one's view of reality being exactly what it is perceived to be as, "naive," while pushing the view that reality is some mystical thing that ca never be truly known because it is only, "made up," by the brain.

If, "ultimate reality is a place of no actual perceiveable things," what exactly is it that physics studies, since it cannot be ultimate reality itself? It's absurd. Ultimate reality is the actual things that exist just as they are perceived, and all of science is nothing more than an explanation of what those actual entities and their nature are. If there were no actual entities, there would be nothing for physics to study.

The view you are espousing is as mystical as any religion: "ultimate reality is some ineffable thing that can never be fully known but is the, "cause," of what only appears to be real." It's just another version of Platonic realism.

I know that's not what you intend or probably think what you say means, but the denial of perceived reality as actual reality is always some form of mysticism. Why are people so afraid that a cow is actually exactly what it appears to be and is as real as real can possibly be?
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Re: A Journey Into Mind, Seeing, And Light

Post by jayjacobus »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:24 pm
jayjacobus wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:11 pm Your thinking seems to be a form of naive realism.

I know that representative realism is a scientific fact.
There is something insidiously wrong with the necessity to disparage one's view of reality being exactly what it is perceived to be as, "naive," while pushing the view that reality is some mystical thing that ca never be truly known because it is only, "made up," by the brain.

If, "ultimate reality is a place of no actual perceiveable things," what exactly is it that physics studies, since it cannot be ultimate reality itself? It's absurd. Ultimate reality is the actual things that exist just as they are perceived, and all of science is nothing more than an explanation of what those actual entities and their nature are. If there were no actual entities, there would be nothing for physics to study.

The view you are espousing is as mystical as any religion: "ultimate reality is some ineffable thing that can never be fully known but is the, "cause," of what only appears to be real." It's just another version of Platonic realism.

I know that's not what you intend or probably think what you say means, but the denial of perceived reality as actual reality is always some form of mysticism. Why are people so afraid that a cow is actually exactly what it appears to be and is as real as real can possibly be?
Reality is only represented by your mind. The cow is represented in your mind by an image. The image is not the cow. The image is a likeness but the image is not the cow. The image doesn't have the weight of the cow nor the hide of the cow nor the functions of the cow. The cow is what it appears to be. But the image is only a depiction of the cow.

I don't deny that perceived reality is a representation of reality.
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