Thinking is the ability of mind

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 5:44 am "Thinking is the ability of the mind." No, thinking is the ability of the organism, consciousness is not limited to the brain and again mind is not a substance or object in the physical world. The organism is object in the duality of subject and object but without ultimate reality/as opposed to apparent reality there would be nothing no consciousness no organism no physical world as we know it. Thinking is a much more complex process than that limited to the focus of the brain. As has long been stated in western philosophy, subject and object can never be separate entities to a conscious subject. When subject and object are talked of as a duality it is only for convenience purposes to aid in our understanding.
Please read the cited thread in OP.
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:00 pm There is no strong emergence (this is discussed here). This means that the brain cannot possibly have a property that the parts don't have. The brain thinks. Therefore, thinking is the property of parts/minds (mind being irreducible substance with abilities to experience, think, decide and cause).
The second sentence would seem to mean things like each neuron can think. Or even each synapse can think. Or even each atom in the brain can think. Since the parts of a brain can do what the whole brain can do. But these are not the case or at least there is no evidence of it. But later in our post you seem to be saying that mind is irreducible substance, so then it's parts can't do the things you list. Or perhaps you are saying minds are irreducible while brains can have parts.
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

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Iwannaplato wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:19 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:00 pm There is no strong emergence (this is discussed here). This means that the brain cannot possibly have a property that the parts don't have. The brain thinks. Therefore, thinking is the property of parts/minds (mind being irreducible substance with abilities to experience, think, decide and cause).
The second sentence would seem to mean things like each neuron can think. Or even each synapse can think. Or even each atom in the brain can think. Since the parts of a brain can do what the whole brain can do. But these are not the case or at least there is no evidence of it. But later in our post you seem to be saying that mind is irreducible substance, so then it's parts can't do the things you list. Or perhaps you are saying minds are irreducible while brains can have parts.
Reality, including the brain, to me, is a set of minds that interact with each other through qualia. What is an elementary particle is beyond the topic of this thread. In such a system, the brain, for example, we have a hierarchy of minds, the conscious mind which is you, and subconscious minds which are other minds that take care of other things. So we have a system that has the ability to think, the brain, and this system has parts of minds that minds communicate information with each other through qualia. In another thread, I argued against strong emergence by which I mean that in any system the properties of the system are similar to properties of parts or a function of properties of parts (we are dealing with weak emergence in the second case which I have to exclude it as I argue in the following). Thinking in general is a process that which there are several minds involved within. Thought is built by the exchange of information between minds. But each mind must be able to understand a thought otherwise it becomes irrelevant in the process of exchange of information. Therefore each mind has the capacity to understand. More or less each mind also contributes in process of creation of thought, therefore, each mind has the capacity to deliver thought as well since a mind that can understand but cannot contribute to the creation of thought is irrelvant in the creation of thought as well.
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

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bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:32 pm Reality, including the brain, to me, is a set of minds that interact with each other through qualia. What is an elementary particle is beyond the topic of this thread. In such a system, the brain, for example, we have a hierarchy of minds, the conscious mind which is you, and subconscious minds which are other minds that take care of other things. So we have a system that has the ability to think, the brain, and this system has parts of minds that minds communicate information with each other through qualia. In another thread, I argued against strong emergence by which I mean that in any system the properties of the system are similar to properties of parts or a function of properties of parts (we are dealing with weak emergence in the second case which I have to exclude it as I argue in the following). Thinking in general is a process that which there are several minds involved within. Thought is built by the exchange of information between minds. But each mind must be able to understand a thought otherwise it becomes irrelevant in the process of exchange of information. Therefore each mind has the capacity to understand. More or less each mind also contributes in process of creation of thought, therefore, each mind has the capacity to deliver thought as well since a mind that can understand but cannot contribute to the creation of thought is irrelvant in the creation of thought as well.
It seems like you are saying each mind can think BUT at the same time you need a bunch of minds to think. Which is it?

A quite separate issue: I don't think there is a conscious mind that knows X and knows it tomorrow or that does X or is me and there are other minds (in me?) that know and do other things. I think consciousness can move around in all parts or areas. So, sometimes I am aware of my anger, say, in relation to a friend, while, in that moment I am not conscious that I am afraid of my shame. But later, when more relaxed I am able to feel the shame and the fear of the shame. We have tremendous fear of noticing portions of ourselves and this creates a kind of ad hoc unconscious which does contain certain things. But this is ad hoc. They are all me.
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

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Iwannaplato wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:36 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:32 pm Reality, including the brain, to me, is a set of minds that interact with each other through qualia. What is an elementary particle is beyond the topic of this thread. In such a system, the brain, for example, we have a hierarchy of minds, the conscious mind which is you, and subconscious minds which are other minds that take care of other things. So we have a system that has the ability to think, the brain, and this system has parts of minds that minds communicate information with each other through qualia. In another thread, I argued against strong emergence by which I mean that in any system the properties of the system are similar to properties of parts or a function of properties of parts (we are dealing with weak emergence in the second case which I have to exclude it as I argue in the following). Thinking in general is a process that which there are several minds involved within. Thought is built by the exchange of information between minds. But each mind must be able to understand a thought otherwise it becomes irrelevant in the process of exchange of information. Therefore each mind has the capacity to understand. More or less each mind also contributes in process of creation of thought, therefore, each mind has the capacity to deliver thought as well since a mind that can understand but cannot contribute to the creation of thought is irrelvant in the creation of thought as well.
It seems like you are saying each mind can think BUT at the same time you need a bunch of minds to think. Which is it?
As I argue thinking is the ability of the mind since otherwise thinking was impossible but the existence of other minds facilitates and expedites the processes of thinking. The same thing happens between two humans, brain storm.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:36 pm A quite separate issue: I don't think there is a conscious mind that knows X and knows it tomorrow or that does X or is me and there are other minds (in me?) that know and do other things. I think consciousness can move around in all parts or areas. So, sometimes I am aware of my anger, say, in relation to a friend, while, in that moment I am not conscious that I am afraid of my shame. But later, when more relaxed I am able to feel the shame and the fear of the shame. We have tremendous fear of noticing portions of ourselves and this creates a kind of ad hoc unconscious which does contain certain things. But this is ad hoc. They are all me.
A conscious mind can do a single task at any time. We are doing multi-task all the time, like deriving when listening to music and chatting with the passangers. Therefore several minds are involved in such a process.
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

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bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:08 pm As I argue thinking is the ability of the mind since otherwise thinking was impossible but the existence of other minds facilitates and expedites the processes of thinking. The same thing happens between two humans, brain storm.
So, one mind does not need other minds to think, but more than one mind facilitates the process.

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:36 pm A quite separate issue: I don't think there is a conscious mind that knows X and knows it tomorrow or that does X or is me and there are other minds (in me?) that know and do other things. I think consciousness can move around in all parts or areas. So, sometimes I am aware of my anger, say, in relation to a friend, while, in that moment I am not conscious that I am afraid of my shame. But later, when more relaxed I am able to feel the shame and the fear of the shame. We have tremendous fear of noticing portions of ourselves and this creates a kind of ad hoc unconscious which does contain certain things. But this is ad hoc. They are all me.
A conscious mind can do a single task at any time. We are doing multi-task all the time, like deriving when listening to music and chatting with the passangers. Therefore several minds are involved in such a process.
I was focused more on the idea that here is the conscious mind in a person and it knows set X of things and does functions set y. When in fact the conscious mind shifts around to different things to feel into and know and different tasks at different times.
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

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Iwannaplato wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:13 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:08 pm As I argue thinking is the ability of the mind since otherwise thinking was impossible but the existence of other minds facilitates and expedites the processes of thinking. The same thing happens between two humans, brain storm.
So, one mind does not need other minds to think, but more than one mind facilitates the process.
Yes.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:13 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:36 pm A quite separate issue: I don't think there is a conscious mind that knows X and knows it tomorrow or that does X or is me and there are other minds (in me?) that know and do other things. I think consciousness can move around in all parts or areas. So, sometimes I am aware of my anger, say, in relation to a friend, while, in that moment I am not conscious that I am afraid of my shame. But later, when more relaxed I am able to feel the shame and the fear of the shame. We have tremendous fear of noticing portions of ourselves and this creates a kind of ad hoc unconscious which does contain certain things. But this is ad hoc. They are all me.
A conscious mind can do a single task at any time. We are doing multi-task all the time, like deriving when listening to music and chatting with the passangers. Therefore several minds are involved in such a process.
I was focused more on the idea that here is the conscious mind in a person and it knows set X of things and does functions set y. When in fact the conscious mind shifts around to different things to feel into and know and different tasks at different times.
I cannot follow you here because of your phrasing.
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

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I was focused more on the idea that here is the conscious mind in a person and it knows set X of things and does functions set y. When in fact the conscious mind shifts around to different things to feel into and know and different tasks at different times.
bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:32 pm I cannot follow you here because of your phrasing.
OK, I was orginally responding to...
In such a system, the brain, for example, we have a hierarchy of minds, the conscious mind which is you, and subconscious minds which are other minds that take care of other things.
This seems to posit certain functions for the conscious mind and other minds that take care of other things, the unconscious.
But to me these minds do not have discrete functions. Rather what one is conscious of shifts over time. What is unconscious today may be conscious tomorrow. And vice versa. Like my hatred of my boss (there mere feeling of which threat4ens me so I don't want to notice it) may be something that I am conscious of sometimes and must consciously try to distract myself from, for example, and may at other times be guiding my behavior without my noticing. It's not Mind 4 handles my unpleasant feelings about my boss and my conscious mind is not aware, but rather that my conscious mind 'moves around'. And further, I would argue, the conscios mind is always aware, to a tiny degree, that theses suppressed things are present. It actively choose to avoid them.
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

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Iwannaplato wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 6:36 am
I was focused more on the idea that here is the conscious mind in a person and it knows set X of things and does functions set y. When in fact the conscious mind shifts around to different things to feel into and know and different tasks at different times.
bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:32 pm I cannot follow you here because of your phrasing.
OK, I was orginally responding to...
In such a system, the brain, for example, we have a hierarchy of minds, the conscious mind which is you, and subconscious minds which are other minds that take care of other things.
This seems to posit certain functions for the conscious mind and other minds that take care of other things, the unconscious.
But to me these minds do not have discrete functions. Rather what one is conscious of shifts over time. What is unconscious today may be conscious tomorrow. And vice versa. Like my hatred of my boss (there mere feeling of which threat4ens me so I don't want to notice it) may be something that I am conscious of sometimes and must consciously try to distract myself from, for example, and may at other times be guiding my behavior without my noticing. It's not Mind 4 handles my unpleasant feelings about my boss and my conscious mind is not aware, but rather that my conscious mind 'moves around'. And further, I would argue, the conscios mind is always aware, to a tiny degree, that theses suppressed things are present. It actively choose to avoid them.
First, all minds are conscious. Second, I agree that there are situations that there is a tension between your inner want, caused by subconscious mind, and what you think is corrct, consious mind.
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

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Age wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:31 am
bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:00 pm There is no strong emergence (this is discussed here). This means that the brain cannot possibly have a property that the parts don't have. The brain thinks. Therefore, thinking is the property of parts/minds (mind being irreducible substance with abilities to experience, think, decide and cause).
An open ind cn hard to acquire.

The human brain is just an organ that is able to gather knowledge, and then remember some of that knowledge.

But, a human brain can only put out what has been put into it. Whereas, thee Mind, of which there is ONLY One, is the 'Thing' that has the ability to learn, understand, and reason absolutely ANY and EVERY thing.

EVERY new thought, idea, invention, plan, and creation comes from thee Truly OPEN Mind. The brain just stores that new knowledge, like a book or a computer does.
An open mind can be hard to get.

People develop cognitve, intellectual, emotional and social capabilities over the course of a normal life span from infancy through old age. It is the subject matter of developmental psychology.

As a child ages, he will change rapidly as he learns to use his abilities and to interact with other people. Older people can become stable but some people continue to change and learn to get better and better at dealing with new ideas and people.

There are psychological stages that have been identified that explains that people change how they think, feel and behave as they mature.

Thinking that there are different ways to think is an abillty that is worthwhile.
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

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bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:32 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:19 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:00 pm There is no strong emergence (this is discussed here). This means that the brain cannot possibly have a property that the parts don't have. The brain thinks. Therefore, thinking is the property of parts/minds (mind being irreducible substance with abilities to experience, think, decide and cause).
The second sentence would seem to mean things like each neuron can think. Or even each synapse can think. Or even each atom in the brain can think. Since the parts of a brain can do what the whole brain can do. But these are not the case or at least there is no evidence of it. But later in our post you seem to be saying that mind is irreducible substance, so then it's parts can't do the things you list. Or perhaps you are saying minds are irreducible while brains can have parts.
Reality, including the brain, to me, is a set of minds that interact with each other through qualia. What is an elementary particle is beyond the topic of this thread. In such a system, the brain, for example, we have a hierarchy of minds, the conscious mind which is you, and subconscious minds which are other minds that take care of other things. So we have a system that has the ability to think, the brain, and this system has parts of minds that minds communicate information with each other through qualia. In another thread, I argued against strong emergence by which I mean that in any system the properties of the system are similar to properties of parts or a function of properties of parts (we are dealing with weak emergence in the second case which I have to exclude it as I argue in the following). Thinking in general is a process that which there are several minds involved within. Thought is built by the exchange of information between minds. But each mind must be able to understand a thought otherwise it becomes irrelevant in the process of exchange of information. Therefore each mind has the capacity to understand. More or less each mind also contributes in process of creation of thought, therefore, each mind has the capacity to deliver thought as well since a mind that can understand but cannot contribute to the creation of thought is irrelvant in the creation of thought as well.
Are you YET AWARE that when you say you argue for some 'thing', then this does NOT necessarily mean that you argued validly NOR soundly, or in other words successfully?

Or do you really BELIEVE that your arguments are sound AND valid?
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

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bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:08 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:36 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:32 pm Reality, including the brain, to me, is a set of minds that interact with each other through qualia. What is an elementary particle is beyond the topic of this thread. In such a system, the brain, for example, we have a hierarchy of minds, the conscious mind which is you, and subconscious minds which are other minds that take care of other things. So we have a system that has the ability to think, the brain, and this system has parts of minds that minds communicate information with each other through qualia. In another thread, I argued against strong emergence by which I mean that in any system the properties of the system are similar to properties of parts or a function of properties of parts (we are dealing with weak emergence in the second case which I have to exclude it as I argue in the following). Thinking in general is a process that which there are several minds involved within. Thought is built by the exchange of information between minds. But each mind must be able to understand a thought otherwise it becomes irrelevant in the process of exchange of information. Therefore each mind has the capacity to understand. More or less each mind also contributes in process of creation of thought, therefore, each mind has the capacity to deliver thought as well since a mind that can understand but cannot contribute to the creation of thought is irrelvant in the creation of thought as well.
It seems like you are saying each mind can think BUT at the same time you need a bunch of minds to think. Which is it?
As I argue thinking is the ability of the mind since otherwise thinking was impossible but the existence of other minds facilitates and expedites the processes of thinking. The same thing happens between two humans, brain storm.
'you', "bahman", are one of the worst 'arguers' here. But this is partly, maybe mostly, just due to your language barrier, I think.
bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:08 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:36 pm A quite separate issue: I don't think there is a conscious mind that knows X and knows it tomorrow or that does X or is me and there are other minds (in me?) that know and do other things. I think consciousness can move around in all parts or areas. So, sometimes I am aware of my anger, say, in relation to a friend, while, in that moment I am not conscious that I am afraid of my shame. But later, when more relaxed I am able to feel the shame and the fear of the shame. We have tremendous fear of noticing portions of ourselves and this creates a kind of ad hoc unconscious which does contain certain things. But this is ad hoc. They are all me.
A conscious mind can do a single task at any time. We are doing multi-task all the time, like deriving when listening to music and chatting with the passangers. Therefore several minds are involved in such a process.
Let us NOT forget you ALSO CLAIM that it was A mind involved in the process of creating the whole Universe, Itself, correct?
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:14 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 6:36 am
I was focused more on the idea that here is the conscious mind in a person and it knows set X of things and does functions set y. When in fact the conscious mind shifts around to different things to feel into and know and different tasks at different times.
bahman wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:32 pm I cannot follow you here because of your phrasing.
OK, I was orginally responding to...
In such a system, the brain, for example, we have a hierarchy of minds, the conscious mind which is you, and subconscious minds which are other minds that take care of other things.
This seems to posit certain functions for the conscious mind and other minds that take care of other things, the unconscious.
But to me these minds do not have discrete functions. Rather what one is conscious of shifts over time. What is unconscious today may be conscious tomorrow. And vice versa. Like my hatred of my boss (there mere feeling of which threat4ens me so I don't want to notice it) may be something that I am conscious of sometimes and must consciously try to distract myself from, for example, and may at other times be guiding my behavior without my noticing. It's not Mind 4 handles my unpleasant feelings about my boss and my conscious mind is not aware, but rather that my conscious mind 'moves around'. And further, I would argue, the conscios mind is always aware, to a tiny degree, that theses suppressed things are present. It actively choose to avoid them.
First, all minds are conscious.
Of 'what', EXACTLY? And,

How many of these mind things are there, EXACTLY?
bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:14 pm Second, I agree that there are situations that there is a tension between your inner want, caused by subconscious mind, and what you think is corrct, consious mind.
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by jayjacobus »

Age wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 2:28 am
bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:14 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 6:36 am


OK, I was orginally responding to...

This seems to posit certain functions for the conscious mind and other minds that take care of other things, the unconscious.
But to me these minds do not have discrete functions. Rather what one is conscious of shifts over time. What is unconscious today may be conscious tomorrow. And vice versa. Like my hatred of my boss (there mere feeling of which threat4ens me so I don't want to notice it) may be something that I am conscious of sometimes and must consciously try to distract myself from, for example, and may at other times be guiding my behavior without my noticing. It's not Mind 4 handles my unpleasant feelings about my boss and my conscious mind is not aware, but rather that my conscious mind 'moves around'. And further, I would argue, the conscios mind is always aware, to a tiny degree, that theses suppressed things are present. It actively choose to avoid them.
First, all minds are conscious.
Of 'what', EXACTLY? And,

How many of these mind things are there, EXACTLY?
bahman wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:14 pm Second, I agree that there are situations that there is a tension between your inner want, caused by subconscious mind, and what you think is corrct, consious mind.
The subconscious comes from the brain. It is the site of human instinct and human nature. It includes the ego, the id and the libido.

As a person develops psychologically, it becomes the site of personality, character, attitudes and inclinations.

Thinking what is correct makes the subconscious practical.
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Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 2:18 am
bahman wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:32 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:19 pm The second sentence would seem to mean things like each neuron can think. Or even each synapse can think. Or even each atom in the brain can think. Since the parts of a brain can do what the whole brain can do. But these are not the case or at least there is no evidence of it. But later in our post you seem to be saying that mind is irreducible substance, so then it's parts can't do the things you list. Or perhaps you are saying minds are irreducible while brains can have parts.
Reality, including the brain, to me, is a set of minds that interact with each other through qualia. What is an elementary particle is beyond the topic of this thread. In such a system, the brain, for example, we have a hierarchy of minds, the conscious mind which is you, and subconscious minds which are other minds that take care of other things. So we have a system that has the ability to think, the brain, and this system has parts of minds that minds communicate information with each other through qualia. In another thread, I argued against strong emergence by which I mean that in any system the properties of the system are similar to properties of parts or a function of properties of parts (we are dealing with weak emergence in the second case which I have to exclude it as I argue in the following). Thinking in general is a process that which there are several minds involved within. Thought is built by the exchange of information between minds. But each mind must be able to understand a thought otherwise it becomes irrelevant in the process of exchange of information. Therefore each mind has the capacity to understand. More or less each mind also contributes in process of creation of thought, therefore, each mind has the capacity to deliver thought as well since a mind that can understand but cannot contribute to the creation of thought is irrelvant in the creation of thought as well.
Are you YET AWARE that when you say you argue for some 'thing', then this does NOT necessarily mean that you argued validly NOR soundly, or in other words successfully?

Or do you really BELIEVE that your arguments are sound AND valid?
It sounds.
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