U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dontaskme
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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

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Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:08 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:55 am blah, blah, blah
Why do you think I don't understand? I simply 'played along' by asking you questions based on what you said... and you are incapable and apparently too cowardly to stay in character long enough to answer them. Thus, you bring out your salad spinner and spew lettuce and tomatoes all over the place as if that somehow offers any clarity or answer.

Non-duality is not the justification for the erratic babblings of someone with manic psychosis.

Okay, I understand the points you are making, that said, we have nothing more to discuss on the subject...that I just happen to be passionate about. Bye for now. 8)
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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

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AlexW wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:04 am
Walker wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:10 pm Sitting here discussing these things is meaningless, useless. That is why I am always saying to my listeners, "Get lost, please!"
Discussing these things might be useless, but it is not "meaningless" - its actually quite the opposite.
It's simply a game of meanings being playing by different individuals, each again made up of a collection of meaningful thoughts.

Can a collection of meaningful thoughts (= a person) be enlightened?
I very much doubt it...

Can a physical organism work in an "enlightened" way (actually meaning: in a natural way without constant mental chatter and interpretation)?
Yes, sure - we all work in this "enlightened" way when "forgetting ourselves" - which happens quite naturally when performing activities that consume most/all of our attention (we were all born "enlightened", but soon get sidetracked by all the activity thats going on "in our heads").

Anyway... just my 2c worth of a meaningful (but most likely: useless) interpretation :-)
“Sitting here discussing these things is meaningless, useless. That is why I am always saying to my listeners, "Get lost, please!" What you want you can get elsewhere, but not here. Go to the temple, do puja, repeat mantras, put on ashes. Eventually some joker comes along and says, "Give me a week's wages and I will give you a better mantra to repeat." Then another fellow comes along and tells you not to do any of that, that it is useless, and that what he is saying is much more revolutionary. He prescribes ‘choiceless awareness,’ takes your money and builds schools, organizations, and tantric centers.”

U.G. Krishnamurti
Mind is a Myth

https://holybooks-lichtenbergpress.netd ... a-myth.pdf

*
I think the the key to the quotation is, “What you want you can get elsewhere, but not here,” because it begs the question, what is not here that can be gotten elsewhere?
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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

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Walker wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:40 am I think the the key to the quotation is, “What you want you can get elsewhere, but not here,” because it begs the question, what is not here that can be gotten elsewhere?
What can be gotten elsewhere is more knowledge and ideas, a new method, a different path etc…
What UG was trying to say is that he doesn’t offer any new methods for improving yourself, but rather invites the listener to observe and see that what is already present doesn’t need improvement (or analysis).
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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

Post by Walker »

That makes sense. Further on he says:

“The uselessness of turning to inner or outer sources to help you is something of which I am certain. It is clear to me that to find out for yourself you must be absolutely helpless with nowhere to turn. That is all. Unfortunately, this certainty cannot be transmitted to someone else.”

- Mind is a Myth
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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

Post by AlexW »

Walker wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:55 am That makes sense. Further on he says:

“The uselessness of turning to inner or outer sources to help you is something of which I am certain. It is clear to me that to find out for yourself you must be absolutely helpless with nowhere to turn. That is all. Unfortunately, this certainty cannot be transmitted to someone else.”
While the quote makes sense, I still don't really agree with UG in that all learning and every path taken to "achieve" this physical transformation is completely useless (UG states that: the transformation back to “the natural state” is a rare, acausal, biological occurrence).
As I see it there is a certain benefit in first realising that there is such a thing as a "natural state", that there is a certain "benefit" in achieving it (also if this benefit is not for the ego - as the ego is something that actually diminishes from it), and that there are certain paths that can help triggering this transformation.

If this transformation is something that the aspirant actually really wants, is a different cup of tea and should be a priority discussion before departing on a path without actually knowing where it leads to... (most seekers seem to depart on the spiritual path to adjust their ego in a positive way, not with the goal of obliterating it completely).
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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

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AlexW wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:27 am
If this transformation is something that the aspirant actually really wants, is a different cup of tea and should be a priority discussion before departing on a path without actually knowing where it leads to... (most seekers seem to depart on the spiritual path to adjust their ego in a positive way, not with the goal of obliterating it completely).
That which 'appears' to transform... Never transformed.

One can still be in the imaginary state of 'ego mentality' but crave nothing, and remain addiction free of any imagined state of being within the material world, including the 'positive' sense of well being.

The response is just another typical example of the ''toxic positivity'' that has become like a mind virus shared also by the ''christian'' brainwashed psycho nuts out there.

No offence, Belief is just another imagined appearance, it's one's prerogative and one's own business. But far removed from the actual reality as it truly is, was, and ever will be.

There is no before or after enlightenment.

Enlightenment is all there is. It's thIS immediate all encompassing ABSOLUTE...



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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

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AlexW wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:27 am ...
Well, that’s just the thing of it all. It’s the concept of the runaway train, or rather the runaway elephant. Big plans going in, all the good intentions until you get punched in the nose and realize uh oh, this situation is actually uncontrollable; realize that getting off the bronco isn’t possible because your foot is caught in the stirrup and if not for that attachment well, end of the rodeo. That’s because after the first revolution, the elephant is deaf to the wiles of ego’s grand intention and choice to stop the boulder’s inevitable roll to the river should the ego judge that as necessary, by futilely clinging to and re-establishing what used to be identity. (Speaking of relaxing to let the good times roll for checking the reception, more than happy to fine-tune/deconstruct if no savvy, rather than compounding more metaphors into static, or hearing complaints.)

:|

You speak of the journey to the doorway. UG speaks of going through the doorway, which is really what counts in all aspects and permutations of perception. After all, this world as each of us knows it, will end for each of us. That the world for each of us should end now, as it did for UG, means a deeper comprehension of reality that includes the intellect.
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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

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Walker wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:09 am UG speaks of going through the doorway, which is really what counts in all aspects and permutations of perception. After all, this world as each of us knows it, will end for each of us. That the world for each of us should end now, as it did for UG, means a deeper comprehension of reality that includes the intellect.
Going through the doorway of death is a difficult thing to do for the ego. The ego doesn't want to die, it seeks to control. Like in the story where the 'fallen angel' alternatively known as the 'devil' would rather rule on earth than serve in heaven.
The ego death is not even a physical event, it's just a paradigm shift of the mind where there's the realisation that you are omnipotent. It's the realisation that you are God, and that you are dreaming yourself alive as a physical being in time and space. In duality, the dream, any thing that can be imagined or believed will be real and true within the dream world.

Real God love is surrendering to every dream 'experience' whether it be positive or negative, and not attaching to one over the other in avoidance of one in preference to the other. The total surrender to ''what is'' ..is NEVER under the ego's control, and is always an act of pure fearless love. Like what Jesus demonstrated on the cross. His death was a metaphor for ego death, so that the supreme God self could be realised. God is not outside of consciousness. God is consciousness, pretending it's a finite material 'being' in space time duality...the dream world.

Awakening to the God infinite consciousness state of pure being, is likened to jumping out of an airplane without a parachute, only to discover that upon falling, there is nothing to fear, since the falling doesn't end as there is no ground on which to land, there's just endless free falling.

Ego is designed to not jump. But those egos that do jump, are people like UGK, and Ramana Maharshi, and Nisargadatta Maharaj and Rupert Spira to name just a few.

It's rare to reach God consciousness, and most ego's do not care about putting in the work to get there. All it takes is one simple shift, and that said, those who do not care, will change nothing, as everything is perfectly the absolute.

Every thing is perfectly right in every way shape and form, and where it should be in every moment.

But you know all this anyway.


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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

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Walker wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:09 am You speak of the journey to the doorway. UG speaks of going through the doorway, which is really what counts in all aspects and permutations of perception.
Yes, I speak about the (idea of a) journey, its all one can apparently do to get closer to the doorway. But no journey will ever be guaranteed to take one through the gate as the “process of gating” is not under the control of anyone or anything - it happens, or it doesn’t… if it happens it can happen in many different ways (as can be seen when reading the varied experiences of all sorts of “spiritual masters”), it can have physical effects, but doesn’t have to, but it will always have several psychological effects (a calm, quiet mind, less self referential thoughts, less/no ego related fears and anxieties etcetc).
But some of these psychological changes could also have arisen due to reworking the ego itself, by shaping it into a more compassionate form… There is, as such, no straightforward way to even tell if someone passed through the doorway (meaning: complete obliteration of ego) not from the outside and often not even for the one who passed himself.
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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

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AlexW wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:46 pm
Walker wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:09 am You speak of the journey to the doorway. UG speaks of going through the doorway, which is really what counts in all aspects and permutations of perception.
Yes, I speak about the (idea of a) journey, its all one can apparently do to get closer to the doorway. But no journey will ever be guaranteed to take one through the gate as the “process of gating” is not under the control of anyone or anything - it happens, or it doesn’t… if it happens it can happen in many different ways (as can be seen when reading the varied experiences of all sorts of “spiritual masters”), it can have physical effects, but doesn’t have to, but it will always have several psychological effects (a calm, quiet mind, less self referential thoughts, less/no ego related fears and anxieties etcetc).
But some of these psychological changes could also have arisen due to reworking the ego itself, by shaping it into a more compassionate form… There is, as such, no straightforward way to even tell if someone passed through the doorway (meaning: complete obliteration of ego) not from the outside and often not even for the one who passed himself.
Dont forget to include ''ALL'' the physical effects, including the ''others' you have not mentioned, the one's known as a hopeless sense of nihilism, depression, an imbalanced sense of confused psychosis, loss of purpose and meaning, and suicidal thoughts.
True awakening can cause those effects too. In my studies of the effects of awakening people are often too scared to take that final leap off the cliff. If you insist on selling the ''pink and fluffy'' beneficial aspects of awakening, then you are selling a half truth. And that's the only reason I objected to you in the first place. And when I brought that to your attention you then recoiled your perception of me believing I wasn't the nice person you thought I was. ( why did you say that? )
You projected your own dark side at me....that's all you did.

True awakening is ''owning'' both your light and dark side. . not projecting it at others.

You did that because you seem to have this false preconceived idea that true real ''Awakening'' turns the ''self'' into some kind of jolly, happy happy joy joy, shiny kind of self...whereas, that's just not what true ''Awakening'' is at all. That's the lie that the new-age woo gurus want to sell people, and people fall for it's flavour, hook line and sinker.

If people were more compassionate after their awakening, then they'd mourn every child that dies horribly from the cruel hands of their caring loving parents, and maybe they'd even go so far as complete cessation from indulging in anymore acts of procreation.

The real truth is, is a truth you do not want to hear. Every act of evil, and every murderer is simply a perfect expression of oneness, because reality is totally free to act in every conceivable way there is possible.

True compassion is a total surrending to ''what is'' ....just like Jesus exemplified for us with grace and honor.
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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

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AlexW wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:27 am
If this transformation is something that the aspirant actually really wants, is a different cup of tea and should be a priority discussion before departing on a path without actually knowing where it leads to... (most seekers seem to depart on the spiritual path to adjust their ego in a positive way, not with the goal of obliterating it completely).
You’re right about that. In fact, anyone who departs on a spiritual path with the goal of completely obliterating ego, has judgment that is suspect (they could be a whackjob.) Such a goal is unbalanced. It’s akin to destroying the oil industry, then begging OPEC for more oil when the chips are down.

Any cliff diving that happens is a result of nowhere to run to, nowhere to hide ... no choice.
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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

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“If you are freed from the goal of the `perfect', `godly', or `truly religious' supermen, then that which is natural in man begins to express itself. Your religious and secular culture has placed before you the ideal man or woman, the perfect human being, and then tries to fit everybody into that mold. It is impossible. Nature is busy creating absolutely unique individuals, whereas culture has invited a single mold to which all must conform. It is grotesque.”

- Mind Is A Myth
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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

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Dontaskme wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:29 pm
Ego is designed to not jump. But those egos that do jump, are people like UGK, and Ramana Maharshi, and Nisargadatta Maharaj and Rupert Spira to name just a few.

.
Folks sometimes originate, come of age so to speak, in cultures tolerant of religious eccentricities, such as begging in the streets, or running around nekked in public when it's laundry day for the loincloth. If folks don't get rescued by an angel, like UG was, they may end up in the nervous hospital ... or otherwise canceled by culture. Cancel culture isn't a new thing, it's the tale of frogs pulling their relations back down into the bucket.

What distinguishes the spiritual giants? Grace, which in some traditions requires many lifetimes to burn-away samskaras ... which is another way of explaining spiritual evolution as a physical phenomenon, which it is.

Never heard of this Spira fella.
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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

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Walker wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:23 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:29 pm
Ego is designed to not jump. But those egos that do jump, are people like UGK, and Ramana Maharshi, and Nisargadatta Maharaj and Rupert Spira to name just a few.

.
Folks sometimes originate, come of age so to speak, in cultures tolerant of religious eccentricities, such as begging in the streets, or running around nekked in public when it's laundry day for the loincloth. If folks don't get rescued by an angel, like UG was, they may end up in the nervous hospital ... or otherwise canceled by culture. Cancel culture isn't a new thing, it's the tale of frogs pulling their relations back down into the bucket.

What distinguishes the spiritual giants? Grace, which in some traditions requires many lifetimes to burn-away samskaras ... which is another way of explaining spiritual evolution as a physical phenomenon, which it is.

Never heard of this Spira fella.
There's no distinction between an angel and a devil, they are both the same one entity. The whole point of awakening is to realise this absolute truth.

As per usual walker, you are talking half truth bollocks.

When the realisation of 'no self' dawns in consciousness 'alone' ALL ONE... there's a realisation I do not exist as a 'named thing' insofar as a 'named thing' can only be what consciousness imagines to be.

Consciousness conscious of being is a self-sustaining, self-referential, infinite, instantaneous feedback loop upon itself. It's one thing, not two.


There is no self because there is no other than self, one without a second...consciousness and the contents of consciousness are absolutely indistinguishable.

Try it, and see for yourself, try separating 'what you know' from that which is knowing what you know.



It's better to never awaken to no self, because that's the whole point of SELF in the first place, IT'S to imagine you exist, because if you didn't imagine yourself, you'd be dead. :shock:

.
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Re: U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

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Walker wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:23 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:29 pm
Ego is designed to not jump. But those egos that do jump, are people like UGK, and Ramana Maharshi, and Nisargadatta Maharaj and Rupert Spira to name just a few.

.
Folks sometimes originate, come of age so to speak, in cultures tolerant of religious eccentricities, such as begging in the streets, or running around nekked in public when it's laundry day for the loincloth. If folks don't get rescued by an angel, like UG was, they may end up in the nervous hospital ... or otherwise canceled by culture. Cancel culture isn't a new thing, it's the tale of frogs pulling their relations back down into the bucket.

What distinguishes the spiritual giants? Grace, which in some traditions requires many lifetimes to burn-away samskaras ... which is another way of explaining spiritual evolution as a physical phenomenon, which it is.
Ramana Maharshi left the trappings of society to live out the rest of his life on top of a steep hill. Awakening does that to people, when the realisation of no self dawns in consciousness, it can cause people to recoil away from reality, it's a kin to a subtle form of suicide where the person has seen through the fake reality into the pure emptiness of being itself.

That's why it's better to not wake up...I mean imagine if every single human being awakened from the dream to realise no one is living life choosing to live like Ramana Maharshi did...then what? what sort of a human culture would that be?

Awakening is nothing special, it's not a divine gift of angelic grace, it's actually the complete opposite, it's a subtle form of self inflicted mental suicide.

So what's the difference between cancel culture, and the cancel culture that is spiritual awakening? :lol: Absolutely zero difference. :shock:
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