U.G. Krishnamurti, gangster guru

[Dontaskme]

I’m afraid I don’t quite share the same feelings as you regarding the inherent worth of conscious life. But I understand where you are coming from, and your reasons for thinking that way. The sheer amount of suffering can’t be offset by any small moments of purity, of oneness, happiness, peace, etc, so, better none of this self aware or conscious life never existed.

There's no way to stop life anyway. Not ever. Can't stop what was never started. No one chose to be born. Nothing chose to be here. No thing ever chose to be that thing they are. No cat ever chose to be a cat. So even if we did decide to stop procreating, there's no way of knowing that human life would or could become extinct. So it's all pointless and usless to think about that.

My point, is that if I could choose to be born, knowing what I know now. I just wouldn't choose to be born, pure and simple.
I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. I'd rather have never been, than be born. But even to think like that is pointless, because again, no one chooses to be born, absolutely no one, no one is living life. There's just pure existence for no one.

To me, being alive is like watching a movie, you know it's not real anyway, and that's the place I've been at pretty much my entire life. I'm just watching a movie frame by frame by frame, watching each day disappear into nothingness, as though nothing in life is ever happening. I'm just here watching each frame run and run, on and on, until the projector turns off and everything goes dark.

I'm done here, I'm just so done, and the weird thing about that feeling for me personally, is that it's the greatest feeling I've ever felt in my entire life. Life's just a wild and crazy roller coaster ride, it's exhileratingly likeable, in the sense, I'm not the one living it. Even if I was caught up in some tragic horrible circumstance like being buried alive under a pile of lava, I would find myself strangely not scared but fully accepting it, I'd probably go so far as to say to myself during the throes of agony, yeah man, just bring it on. At least that would be one experience I have not had the pleasure of experiencing, to me, the experience of dying would be like what the fuck ever, I don't actually care. At least I only have to do this once, as far as I am personally aware. And that's the same for life, you only have to do it once, so might as well just grab the soda and popcorn.

PS..I've pretty much felt this way all my life, even before I learnt to read words. Later, when I learnt to read, especially books from UG and the rest, it was like reading my own thoughts, the ones I'd had since childhood. I was born like this, I did not become this.

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[Lacewing]

Maybe someday we won't be so afraid... and THEN what might we create?

A low birth in the next life ... according to some views, because "no fear," could be cause for doing stupid, insensitive things that create karma too heavy for one life.

Lack of fear can result from understanding or ignorance... right? If you've ever moved past fear in your life, due to better/greater understanding, then you know what I'm talking about. And there's no reason to think you're DONE doing that, is there? So, as humankind advances beyond some of the limiting (even debilitating) fears of today, we can be freed up for realizing more capability. If we don't even recognize how/when we are ruled by irrational fear -- and how we make up stories to justify and perpetuate it -- then we cannot realize it for what it is and how greatly it limits us.

[Lacewing]

no one chooses to be born, absolutely no one

How do you know that? Just because you're not aware of it (in your human form) doesn't mean you or anyone hasn't chosen it.

To me, being alive is like watching a movie, you know it's not real anyway, and that's the place I've been at pretty much my entire life.

Some people might 'get into' that and have fun with it. I was just talking with someone yesterday about how great it is to observe ourselves living life. It's not boring... it's fascinating... for us. Observing to see what will come through us or unfold next. We're not identifying with these bodies in a way that we used to. We don't claim to understand it... but we're accepting of it... and we see positive results from it.

I'm just watching a movie frame by frame by frame, watching each day disappear into nothingness, as though nothing in life is ever happening.

Well, are you expecting someone to entertain you?

I'm just here watching each frame run and run, on and on, until the projector turns off and everything goes dark.

Do you imagine that's NOT your choice? Do you imagine there's no other 'real' way to do it? If none of it matters, then you have a great opportunity to really stretch the boundaries and see what you can create. But (apparently) you don't want to or you don't see a point... so THAT'S FINE for you. Just don't be like a theist and claim what life IS for everyone, okay? You clearly don't know... what it can be for other people. Perhaps you think you've seen the light of truth from some lofty viewpoint, where you can see that life is ho-hum boring. Okay, that's ONE trip you can make through this world. What are you going to do if electronics stop working and you can't play your video games?

As one 'lofty thinker' to another ... why would there be limitation in how to view and use this world/life experience? You like to PLAY, right? Do you think there's nothing more to see than what you've seen so far? Are you protecting or excusing yourself somehow by dismissing the value or potential of where you find yourself? If you don't like the movie, why are you sticking to a certain script?

[Dontaskme]

If you don't like the movie, why are you sticking to a certain script?

You do not write the script. The script is writing you. You don't depend on The Big Bang, The Big Bang depends on you.

You are not playing your script, your script is playing you. 'You' is consciousness which is everyone and no one.

''Awakening'' from the dream of I... IS a conscious realisation that everything that is happening, is happening to no one.
It's like when you wake-up from a nightly dream where you appeared to be in that dream, only to realise upon waking from the dream, that you were not in the dream, rather, the dream was in you.

I pierced that very thin veil at a very young age, and have as a consequence of that exhilerating awakening, checked out of the dreamlike trance, and entered a new trance, known as the conscious state, where I am aware I do not exist as an object.

In other words, I've checked out of the pretence that is 99% of all human belief structures.

Doesn't mean I can't still enjoy the movie of I.
I'm just more aware of the fakeness of it, which only leaves room for realness. A state of pure acceptance to what-ever will be will be,in every moment of existence, there is a conscious knowing, that knows the moment is not mine to see. And that nothing belongs to me. Rather I belong to thee.

No one is playing the video game of life, just as there is no in the characters within the video game itself. All characters are just appearances of no thing.

If no image was ever recorded, did said image ever happen. The one looking at it's image is imageless. Seer and seen are one in the instantaneous instant of not-knowing.

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[Belinda]

If you don't like the movie, why are you sticking to a certain script?

You do not write the script. The script is writing you. You don't depend on The Big Bang, The Big Bang depends on you.

You are not playing your script, your script is playing you. 'You' is consciousness which is everyone and no one.

''Awakening'' from the dream of I... IS a conscious realisation that everything that is happening, is happening to no one.
It's like when you wake-up from a nightly dream where you appeared to be in that dream, only to realise upon waking from the dream, that you were not in the dream, rather, the dream was in you.

I pierced that very thin veil at a very young age, and have as a consequence of that exhilerating awakening, checked out of the dreamlike trance, and entered a new trance, known as the conscious state, where I am aware I do not exist as an object.

In other words, I've checked out of the pretence that is 99% of all human belief structures.

Doesn't mean I can't still enjoy the movie of I.
I'm just more aware of the fakeness of it, which only leaves room for realness. A state of pure acceptance to what-ever will be will be,in every moment of existence, there is a conscious knowing, that knows the moment is not mine to see. And that nothing belongs to me. Rather I belong to thee.

No one is playing the video game of life, just as there is no in the characters within the video game itself. All characters are just appearances of no thing.

If no image was ever recorded, did said image ever happen. The one looking at it's image is imageless. Seer and seen are one in the instantaneous instant of not-knowing.

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"The dream is in you" is true, but it does not follow that you are helpless to influence future events. Everything and every event influences future events. Some beings such as humans can reason as to what they think and how they act will influence future events. There is no such thing as Fate which determines future events.

[Dontaskme]

"The dream is in you" is true, but it does not follow that you are helpless to influence future events. Everything and every event influences future events. Some beings such as humans can reason as to what they think and how they act will influence future events. There is no such thing as Fate which determines future events.

Sorry, I've no idea what you are talking about.

Sometimes I get a glimmer of understanding from you, but then there are other times when I'm left scratching my head, the above response does not compute, in the sense that it does not in my opinion correlate with anything I had said.

It's like you put words in my mouth, that I never implied.

It's not what you've said, it's just that it doesn't connect with what I am talking about.

It doesn't matter because each and everyone of us can only see reality through the lens of our own unique perception.

So when I say I am not reading you, it just means I'm not understanding something, not that you are wrong.

[Dontaskme]

no one chooses to be born, absolutely no one

How do you know that? Just because you're not aware of it (in your human form) doesn't mean you or anyone hasn't chosen it.

How could I not know what I know?

Where is the ''knower'' actually occurring? That knowledge cannot be known. You cannot actually physically touch the ''knower'' without making it a known, that cannot know anything.

No one can be aware they are aware. They can only be aware they are not aware. Which leaves only ''pure awareness'' without an object. In reality, there is no 'objective reality' existing apart from the 'subjective first person' appearance.
In other words, that which is known conceptually, knows nothing, except in this conception, which is a metaphysical claimed superimposition of something upon nothing. Or something from nothing, same thing.

A reality that is ''known'' is none other than an experience involving the apparent perception of something not present. And that would be a metaphysical claim.

Religion points to these same ideas. But the xtians have distorted the pointings to be literal and true, the xtians are a positive evil force who have attempted to take over the world, much like their islamic brothers and sisters. That's why religion gets such a bad rap, because it's been artificially demonised by the ego's clinging on to a programmed belief structure.

It's not the fault of the humans, it's the belief structures that are at fault, the humans do not know any different, not until they choose to question their beliefs very deeply, but most just blindly accept them as reality.

[Lacewing]

I was hoping to have a more interesting discussion with you, but I guess this is where it's at right now.

If you don't like the movie, why are you sticking to a certain script?

You do not write the script. The script is writing you.

Whatever.

''Awakening'' from the dream of I... IS a conscious realisation that everything that is happening, is happening to no one.

Then why do you make such a big deal about 'being here', 'being alive', 'being born'? What the fuck difference does it make?

I pierced that very thin veil at a very young age, and have as a consequence of that exhilerating awakening, checked out of the dreamlike trance, and entered a new trance, known as the conscious state, where I am aware I do not exist as an object.

What are you doing with that awareness?

A state of pure acceptance to what-ever will be will be,in every moment of existence, there is a conscious knowing, that knows the moment is not mine to see. And that nothing belongs to me. Rather I belong to thee.

So, why do you complain about it?

No one is playing the video game of life, just as there is no in the characters within the video game itself. All characters are just appearances of no thing.

How is there a video game if there is no one?

If no image was ever recorded, did said image ever happen. The one looking at it's image is imageless. Seer and seen are one in the instantaneous instant of not-knowing.

Okay, so what?

What does all of this salad-spinner babble do for you? Do you feel more contentment... happiness... acceptance... nothing? Why does it matter enough to say it? Just noise coming from no one?

When you go into this stage of your spin cycle, it's difficult to have a conversation with you. Perhaps that's why you do it.

[Dontaskme]

No one is playing the video game of life, just as there is no in the characters within the video game itself. All characters are just appearances of no thing.

How is there a video game if there is no one?

You are the VR - you are both the creator and character within your own Virtual Reality. You are the infinite finite creator of yourself and others.

No one is just another concept for ONE ...You're the one. You could not know that without the contrast of opposites...aka the realisation that you are dreaming yourself alive as an animated character within your own movie.

When playing of the vr game ''Animal Crossing'' ....the action is just another appearance affecting another appearance in the form of I ..which is another appearance of consciousness.
Everything is ultimately an appearance of consciousness...which IS every thing appearing in no thing.

No-thing is making any-thing happen. The answer to the HOW question is ''Magic''



There's nothing behind the image of I.

Infinity is finity.
Not-knowing is knowing.

Existence and non-existence are the same one existence, they just differ in appearance.

Every thing is an appearance of no thing.

Appearances aka the dream is all there IS

If you don't do metaphysics - metaphysics will do you.

Metaphysics is not a spurious sham claimed by science. Metaphysics is the reality behind all mental first person subjective opinions, which in essence are empty to the core. The 'you' is an empty belief.

But you have to discover this metaphysics for yourself, if it's not interesting enough for you, then your ego, another empty principle will go into backlash mode by fighting with it. That's it's job, and it does it's job very well. But don't take my word for it...check it out for yourself. I can only point you to it.

This is a meta-mind thread. Good luck.

I understand that no one who is not familiar with the metaphysics - the nondual nature of reality will not speak like this in ordinary normal life, which is the dream of separation. So it's no surprise that the message makes people angry and frrustrated. It's normal, but it's simply due to a lack of understanding. Once the understanding dawns, epecially when one is fully open to hear it, then it will all become perfectly clear.


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[Dimebag]

@Lacewing

To a person of philosophy and reason who hears these contradictions, they tend to be alarm bells to them of some faulty logic, some error calling out to be corrected or the entire statement thrown out.

The reason why such seeming contradictions or paradoxes exist is due to the differing viewpoints which you take when explaining this topic. You move from the relative to the absolute within the one statement, leading to such a contradiction.

The relative is simply an appearance in the absolute, and seemingly, the absolute is comprised of nothing but the relative. Yet, the relative can be known by an apparent knower, yet this knower is the absolute, pretending to be the relative. But the absolute shows itself as thus by its complete unknowability. As the absolute, it is completely inaccessible. Unknowable. Yet, at the same instant, it is known, that this one is what is appearing. So can be known, in the relative sense, as an appearance in itself.

So paradoxes are part of the territory here, and shouldn’t be shied away from.

It can be difficult to extract meaning from these seemingly contradictory statements, if you are having difficulty doing so, don’t be too worried, the only real importance in this topic is to attain some kind of self knowledge, and potentially a shift in your self understanding or identity.

If that doesn’t interest you, no need to inquire further.

We are not performing some attempt at logical coherence. Logic is the casualty of this work.

[Lacewing]

blah, blah, blah

Why do you think I don't understand? I simply 'played along' by asking you questions based on what you said... and you are incapable and apparently too cowardly to stay in character long enough to answer them. Thus, you bring out your salad spinner and spew lettuce and tomatoes all over the place as if that somehow offers any clarity or answer.

Non-duality is not the justification for the erratic babblings of someone with manic psychosis.

[Lacewing]

To a person of philosophy and reason who hears these contradictions, they tend to be alarm bells to them of some faulty logic, some error calling out to be corrected or the entire statement thrown out.

Why do you presume that I don't understand? You can read my response to DAM.

[Dimebag]

To a person of philosophy and reason who hears these contradictions, they tend to be alarm bells to them of some faulty logic, some error calling out to be corrected or the entire statement thrown out.

Why do you presume that I don't understand? You can read my response to DAM.

I get your response actually, I sometimes feel the same. I’m not sure if sometimes there is something I am not understanding, maybe a limitation of my conceptual faculties, or maybe certain statements made are just empty strings of words meant to provide a general gist of non duality without actually explaining anything. But the thing is, understanding non duality is not the same as grasping it. We are not trying to simulate non dual here.

I don’t pretend to speak from the absolute. My realisation is still a dualistic one, albeit consciousness seems to know itself, and yet, it hasn’t quite grasped that it, the knower, is not separate from that which it knows. So for me understanding nonduality is useful only as a kind of guide. But it is not a doorway to the absolute, it is not a practice to lead toward it.

Therefore, I would separate the understanding of non duality, from the realisation of non duality. They are two different endeavours.

It’s fine then, if you have an understanding of this topic. I kind of agree with you that, there could be no end to the realisations possible.

[Lacewing]

understanding non duality is not the same as grasping it. We are not trying to simulate non dual here.

Agreed, sort of. Some first-hand experience/grasping of it may be required to understand it. It is definitely a concept/discussion beyond the framework of typical conversation. 'I' am playing here. And part of playing is using words like a character on a stage. The 'high-wire' act I perform on stage is very much about 'stepping off the stage'... or levitating or flying or flipping the lights on and off... to demonstrate what ELSE is possible. I even dream of doing this in my dreams! And I recognize that I'm doing it for many 'myselves'. I am not struggling with it. It is not a serious matter. I truly see everything as fine.

My interest in the gyrations 'here'... on this apparent 'forum' in time and space... is to question thoughts and claims, and to see what is being done with them. What are they capable of? How are they being used? Potential is very intriguing to me. Such creative power! So twisted and convincing at times -- so profoundly beautiful and expansive at other times. I feel a lot of love. And I love to dance... in all sorts of ways!

[AlexW]

Sitting here discussing these things is meaningless, useless. That is why I am always saying to my listeners, "Get lost, please!"

Discussing these things might be useless, but it is not "meaningless" - its actually quite the opposite.
It's simply a game of meanings being playing by different individuals, each again made up of a collection of meaningful thoughts.

Can a collection of meaningful thoughts (= a person) be enlightened?
I very much doubt it...

Can a physical organism work in an "enlightened" way (actually meaning: in a natural way without constant mental chatter and interpretation)?
Yes, sure - we all work in this "enlightened" way when "forgetting ourselves" - which happens quite naturally when performing activities that consume most/all of our attention (we were all born "enlightened", but soon get sidetracked by all the activity thats going on "in our heads").

Anyway... just my 2c worth of a meaningful (but most likely: useless) interpretation