Materialism, hallucination, spirituality

[bahman]

Materialists claim that spirituality is a hallucination yet ironically they don't know what consciousness is. How possibly could one have a single spiritual experience when there is nothing that causes the experience?

[jayjacobus]

Materialists claim that spirituality is a hallucination yet ironically they don't know what consciousness is. How possibly could one have a single spiritual experience when there is nothing that causes the experience?

You are asking a question that is a good one to ask.

[bahman]

Materialists claim that spirituality is a hallucination yet ironically they don't know what consciousness is. How possibly could one have a single spiritual experience when there is nothing that causes the experience?

You are asking a question that is a good one to ask.

Yes, it is a valid question. It seems that no one has an answer to it.

[Impenitent]

pineal glands be damned ...

-Imp

[Dimebag]

Materialists claim that spirituality is a hallucination yet ironically they don't know what consciousness is. How possibly could one have a single spiritual experience when there is nothing that causes the experience?

They claim the brain causes the hallucinations. Under that banner, dreams are spiritual experiences, as are forms of imagination, daydreaming, remembering etc. Anything that cannot be verified by a third party via their experience is not claimed to exist and therefore, is a hallucination.

[Age]

Materialists claim that spirituality is a hallucination yet ironically they don't know what consciousness is.

Do, so called, "nonmaterialists" know what 'consciousness' is?

If yes, then what do those people say 'consciousness' is?

How possibly could one have a single spiritual experience when there is nothing that causes the experience?

What is a 'spiritual experience', to you?

And, who claims there is nothing that causes the experience of a 'single spiritual experience'?

Also, what, exactly, does cause the, so called, 'single spiritual experience'?

[bahman]

Materialists claim that spirituality is a hallucination yet ironically they don't know what consciousness is. How possibly could one have a single spiritual experience when there is nothing that causes the experience?

They claim the brain causes the hallucinations. Under that banner, dreams are spiritual experiences, as are forms of imagination, daydreaming, remembering etc. Anything that cannot be verified by a third party via their experience is not claimed to exist and therefore, is a hallucination.

Yes, they claim that the brain causes hallucinations yet they don't know how to resolve the hard problem of consciousness. Moreover, the dream is not necessarily coherent whereas spiritual experience is coherent.

[bahman]

Materialists claim that spirituality is a hallucination yet ironically they don't know what consciousness is.

Do, so called, "nonmaterialists" know what 'consciousness' is?

Yes.

If yes, then what do those people say 'consciousness' is?

Consciousness to me is the ability to be aware of surroundings.

How possibly could one have a single spiritual experience when there is nothing that causes the experience?

What is a 'spiritual experience', to you?

Any sort of experience beyond what physical objects, like a chair, humans, etc., cause.

And, who claims there is nothing that causes the experience of a 'single spiritual experience'?

Materialists say that spiritual experiences are hallucinations.

Also, what, exactly, does cause the, so called, 'single spiritual experience'?

A mind.

[Age]

Materialists claim that spirituality is a hallucination yet ironically they don't know what consciousness is.

Do, so called, "nonmaterialists" know what 'consciousness' is?

Yes.

If yes, then what do those people say 'consciousness' is?

Consciousness to me is the ability to be aware of surroundings.

Would all, so called, "nonmaterialists" say that this is what 'consciousness' is?

How possibly could one have a single spiritual experience when there is nothing that causes the experience?

What is a 'spiritual experience', to you?

Any sort of experience beyond what physical objects, like a chair, humans, etc., cause.

Is there any thing, which is not a physical object, that can cause some thing?

If yes, then what is that thing or those things?

Also, could a 'spiritual experience' be experienced by any thing that is not a physical thing?

If yes, then like what, exactly?

And, who claims there is nothing that causes the experience of a 'single spiritual experience'?

Materialists say that spiritual experiences are hallucinations.

Unless "materialists" say that hallucinations are caused by nothing, then "materialists" would say hallucinations are caused by some thing, which would mean they are actually saying that 'hallucinations', which are just 'spiritual experiences', to them, are caused by some thing and NOT by no thing.

Also, what, exactly, does cause the, so called, 'single spiritual experience'?

A mind.

And what, to you, is 'A mind', exactly?

[Dontaskme]

Materialists claim that spirituality is a hallucination yet ironically they don't know what consciousness is. How possibly could one have a single spiritual experience when there is nothing that causes the experience?

Consciousness cannot tell itself it is Conscious because it is Consciousness. Consciousness cannot know Consciousness because IT is Consciousness.

Consciousness is just another word for ''Knowing''

IT aka Consciousness is not some-thing to be known by someone. Consciousness is the knowing that cannot be known.
In essence you ( IT ) are that Knowing.

The known is inseparable from the knower, this immediate knowing is instantaneously present in every moment. There is nothing that can be known without a knower present in the exact same instant.

You are that knowing that cannot be known.

People do not like that answer because it's meaningless and nonsensical, and yet is the only answer available to the question of consciousness.

Consciousness never experiences itself as the known it knows aka (an object)
....because an object known, does not know...... An object ( aka the known) is inseparable from the knower...there is no division there....So in reality, there is only ''KNOWING'' without knowing.

In other words, Consciousness or nonduality is the one question to all our answers.

The illusory sense of self, ( aka separation) is an appearance, an illusion cannot question or answer it's experience, because there's only ever this immediate instantaneous ''experiencing''

And so in that realisation, that instant of ''knowing'' there can be a rejection of all our answers, and is why, only questions can arise here, and those questions will continue to be endless, because the answers are never enough or satisfactory. Since Consciousness itself is one and cannot be touched by another, because the other simply is an appearance of Consciousness itself that cannot be touched.

Consciousness has no need to explain itself, nor does it need a cause, or a purpose, or a reason to be. IT just is, without doubt or error.

The Consciousness can also be just another word for ''Aliveness'' and so for example: A human brain is alive, it's functioning as though the lights are on... it's a living organism... but the brain cannot inform itself it is a brain, it's just BEING a brain. The brain in and of itself never knows it is a brain. The brain is simply braining. In other words Consciousness is simply braining as and through it's own material knowns...aka concepts.

In a nutshell....you cannot know Consciousness because you are IT








.

[Age]

Materialists claim that spirituality is a hallucination yet ironically they don't know what consciousness is. How possibly could one have a single spiritual experience when there is nothing that causes the experience?

Consciousness cannot tell itself it is Conscious because it is Consciousness. Consciousness cannot know Consciousness because IT is Consciousness.

Consciousness is just another word for ''Knowing''

IT aka Consciousness is not some-thing to be known by someone. Consciousness is the knowing that cannot be known.
In essence you ( IT ) are that Knowing.

The known is inseparable from the knower, this immediate knowing is instantaneously present in every moment. There is nothing that can be known without a knower present in the exact same instant.

You are that knowing that cannot be known.

People do not like that answer because it's meaningless and nonsensical, and yet is the only answer available to the question of consciousness.

Consciousness never experiences itself as the known it knows aka (an object)
....because an object known, does not know...... An object ( aka the known) is inseparable from the knower...there is no division there....So in reality, there is only ''KNOWING'' without knowing.

In other words, Consciousness or nonduality is the one question to all our answers.

The illusory sense of self, ( aka separation) is an appearance, an illusion cannot question or answer it's experience, because there's only ever this immediate instantaneous ''experiencing''

And so in that realisation, that instant of ''knowing'' there can be a rejection of all our answers, and is why, only questions can arise here, and those questions will continue to be endless, because the answers are never enough or satisfactory. Since Consciousness itself is one and cannot be touched by another, because the other simply is an appearance of Consciousness itself that cannot be touched.

Consciousness has no need to explain itself, nor does it need a cause, or a purpose, or a reason to be. IT just is, without doubt or error.

The Consciousness can also be just another word for ''Aliveness'' and so for example: A human brain is alive, it's functioning as though the lights are on... it's a living organism... but the brain cannot inform itself it is a brain, it's just BEING a brain. The brain in and of itself never knows it is a brain. The brain is simply braining. In other words Consciousness is simply braining as and through it's own material knowns...aka concepts.

In a nutshell....you cannot know Consciousness because you are IT








.

The word 'you' implies "another". There is NOT an "other". 'you' are therefore NOT the 'IT', which the one known as "dontaskme" here is referring to.

'I' am that 'IT', which is just Consciousness or Awareness, Itself, of which there is ONLY One.

[Dontaskme]

The word 'you' implies "another". There is NOT an "other". 'you' are therefore NOT the 'IT', which the one known as "dontaskme" here is referring to.

'I' am that 'IT', which is just Consciousness or Awareness, Itself, of which there is ONLY One.

Yes, I totally agree with your response.

You've mangaged to put it very simply and easily like you've always claimed it is.

And for that, I'm grateful.

There is nothing worse than having to wade through endless reams and reams of your attempts to seek clarification from endless responses to relplies ...when it is blaringly self-evident that what is being pointed to here, can be simply heard and resonated with...or simply realised with no further clarification needed...no need for further inquiry so to speak.


.

[bahman]

Do, so called, "nonmaterialists" know what 'consciousness' is?

Yes.

If yes, then what do those people say 'consciousness' is?

Consciousness to me is the ability to be aware of surroundings.

Would all, so called, "nonmaterialists" say that this is what 'consciousness' is?

No, some believe that consciousness is fundamental whereas I believe that the mind is fundamental and consciousness is an ability of the mind.

What is a 'spiritual experience', to you?

Any sort of experience beyond what physical objects, like a chair, humans, etc., cause.

Is there any thing, which is not a physical object, that can cause some thing?

Yes.

If yes, then what is that thing or those things?

Spiritual beings.

Also, could a 'spiritual experience' be experienced by any thing that is not a physical thing?

Yes.

If yes, then like what, exactly?

Have you ever had a single spiritual experience?

And, who claims there is nothing that causes the experience of a 'single spiritual experience'?

Materialists say that spiritual experiences are hallucinations.

Unless "materialists" say that hallucinations are caused by nothing, then "materialists" would say hallucinations are caused by some thing, which would mean they are actually saying that 'hallucinations', which are just 'spiritual experiences', to them, are caused by some thing and NOT by no thing.

They say that hallucination is caused by the brain but they have no explanation for how something like this is possible.

Also, what, exactly, does cause the, so called, 'single spiritual experience'?

A mind.

And what, to you, is 'A mind', exactly?

I already mentioned that to you. Mind is a substance whit ability to experience, decide and cause.

[bahman]

Materialists claim that spirituality is a hallucination yet ironically they don't know what consciousness is. How possibly could one have a single spiritual experience when there is nothing that causes the experience?

Consciousness cannot tell itself it is Conscious because it is Consciousness. Consciousness cannot know Consciousness because IT is Consciousness.

Consciousness is just another word for ''Knowing''

IT aka Consciousness is not some-thing to be known by someone. Consciousness is the knowing that cannot be known.
In essence you ( IT ) are that Knowing.

The known is inseparable from the knower, this immediate knowing is instantaneously present in every moment. There is nothing that can be known without a knower present in the exact same instant.

You are that knowing that cannot be known.

People do not like that answer because it's meaningless and nonsensical, and yet is the only answer available to the question of consciousness.

Consciousness never experiences itself as the known it knows aka (an object)
....because an object known, does not know...... An object ( aka the known) is inseparable from the knower...there is no division there....So in reality, there is only ''KNOWING'' without knowing.

In other words, Consciousness or nonduality is the one question to all our answers.

The illusory sense of self, ( aka separation) is an appearance, an illusion cannot question or answer it's experience, because there's only ever this immediate instantaneous ''experiencing''

And so in that realisation, that instant of ''knowing'' there can be a rejection of all our answers, and is why, only questions can arise here, and those questions will continue to be endless, because the answers are never enough or satisfactory. Since Consciousness itself is one and cannot be touched by another, because the other simply is an appearance of Consciousness itself that cannot be touched.

Consciousness has no need to explain itself, nor does it need a cause, or a purpose, or a reason to be. IT just is, without doubt or error.

The Consciousness can also be just another word for ''Aliveness'' and so for example: A human brain is alive, it's functioning as though the lights are on... it's a living organism... but the brain cannot inform itself it is a brain, it's just BEING a brain. The brain in and of itself never knows it is a brain. The brain is simply braining. In other words Consciousness is simply braining as and through it's own material knowns...aka concepts.

In a nutshell....you cannot know Consciousness because you are IT








.

Consciousness to me is known, it is the state of awareness of surroundings.

[Dontaskme]

Consciousness to me is known, it is the state of awareness of surroundings.

You cannot know Consciousness because you are IT.

Consciousness is the ''Knowing'' not the known.

The 'Known' is a concept of Knowing.

A conceptual known (object) is never an experience of Consciousness. If it was, an actual material body part would be able to inform itself it is a body part. In other words, an arm can never inform itself it is an arm.