Mind is immortal II

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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Re: Mind is immortal II

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:28 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:48 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:25 pm

No the universe is in constant change regardless of our minds which are only observers.
I see no reason to think that the ever changing red spot of Jupiter which may well have existed for millions of years requires any mind of any kind. Why would I think that?
I have an argument in favor of that. If you accept this for sake of argument then I can show you that the mind is immortal. I can prove later that mind is needed for any change.
You ask me to beleive the absurd so you can prove the ridiculous
You are hopeless.
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bahman
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Re: Mind is immortal II

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:28 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:51 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:28 pm

This is funny. Energence is a fact of life. I do not think you really understand what the word means.
I think it is a fact that emergence has been a concept from the earliest times, and that no one is going to argue that emergent properties do not come about from the combination of simpler elements.
I think it is also possible to construct a massive list of emergent properties where a more detailed knowledge and scientific description of elements are laws of nature has thrown light on just HOW these emergent properties come to be from the physical nature of the parts, IN fact the recognition of those emergent properties have, in many cases, been of great help to science in demonstrating just how those physicals laws and primary properties can join together to create them so that laws have been demonstrated by their observation.
All this point to an unfolding of understanding whereby epistemological emergence or should we say empirical emergence has been proven and demonstrated, to obey and reveal the complexity of the structures of the world.
We no longer believe, as Aristotle did that the brain served as a cooling agent for the heart. Through diligent study we have a clear idea that consciousness is an epistemologically emergent quality of the structuration of neural tissue.
What is wrong with my argument?
You've not presented one
Ok, I don't waste my time here anymore.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Mind is immortal II

Post by RCSaunders »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:29 am
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:58 am
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:21 pm

There ia big problem with that.
Iron rusts. And emergent property of steel and carbon is that it does not rust.
A rotting brain in a bucket does not see to be conscious, but you are saying it is.
I am? Well, I don't know how you got that from what I said, but just to make it clear, the brain is not conscious of anything. There is no more consciousness in a brain than there is in a liver or kidney, its just more closely related to consciousness.

I know that's not your view. I'm just pointing out what you said about mine is not true.
So you are saying two things.
1) Consciousness is a property of the entire universe
2) Brains are not conscious
Am i right so far?
I did say, #2 "Brains are not conscious."
I certainly did not say, "Consciousness is a property of the entire universe," because it isn't. I'm not even certain how any property could be a property of the entire universe.

Unless you regard things like existence itself, or extension (time and space) properties, nothing is a property of the entire universe. Properties are only properties of existents and do not exist at all independent of the entities they are the properties of. Mass only exists as a property of physical entities. If you mean by, "of the entire universe," that, "every entity in the universe has mass," I would agree with that. In that sense, consciousness is definitely not a property of the entire universe, just as life is not a property of the entire universe, but only a property of living organisms, consciousness is only a property of living conscious organisms.
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Sculptor
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Re: Mind is immortal II

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:10 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:28 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:48 pm
I have an argument in favor of that. If you accept this for sake of argument then I can show you that the mind is immortal. I can prove later that mind is needed for any change.
You ask me to beleive the absurd so you can prove the ridiculous
You are hopeless.
No that is pure projection.
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Sculptor
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Re: Mind is immortal II

Post by Sculptor »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:29 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:29 am
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:58 am
I am? Well, I don't know how you got that from what I said, but just to make it clear, the brain is not conscious of anything. There is no more consciousness in a brain than there is in a liver or kidney, its just more closely related to consciousness.

I know that's not your view. I'm just pointing out what you said about mine is not true.
So you are saying two things.
1) Consciousness is a property of the entire universe
2) Brains are not conscious
Am i right so far?
I did say, #2 "Brains are not conscious."
I certainly did not say, "Consciousness is a property of the entire universe," because it isn't. I'm not even certain how any property could be a property of the entire universe.
You implied that dead brains were an exception, since you said that consciousness was like gravity and acceleartion which are acting at all places and at all times.

Unless you regard things like existence itself, or extension (time and space) properties, nothing is a property of the entire universe. Properties are only properties of existents and do not exist at all independent of the entities they are the properties of. Mass only exists as a property of physical entities. If you mean by, "of the entire universe," that, "every entity in the universe has mass," I would agree with that. In that sense, consciousness is definitely not a property of the entire universe, just as life is not a property of the entire universe, but only a property of living organisms, consciousness is only a property of living conscious organisms.
So you seem to be coming towards my view that consciousness is in fact an emrgent and special property of healthy neural matter.
Unless there is something you have yet to explain???
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RCSaunders
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Re: Mind is immortal II

Post by RCSaunders »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:27 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:29 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:29 am

So you are saying two things.
1) Consciousness is a property of the entire universe
2) Brains are not conscious
Am i right so far?
I did say, #2 "Brains are not conscious."
I certainly did not say, "Consciousness is a property of the entire universe," because it isn't. I'm not even certain how any property could be a property of the entire universe.
You implied that dead brains were an exception, since you said that consciousness was like gravity and acceleartion which are acting at all places and at all times.

Unless you regard things like existence itself, or extension (time and space) properties, nothing is a property of the entire universe. Properties are only properties of existents and do not exist at all independent of the entities they are the properties of. Mass only exists as a property of physical entities. If you mean by, "of the entire universe," that, "every entity in the universe has mass," I would agree with that. In that sense, consciousness is definitely not a property of the entire universe, just as life is not a property of the entire universe, but only a property of living organisms, consciousness is only a property of living conscious organisms.
So you seem to be coming towards my view that consciousness is in fact an emrgent and special property of healthy neural matter.
Unless there is something you have yet to explain???
If you see that way, that's fine.
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Sculptor
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Re: Mind is immortal II

Post by Sculptor »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:35 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:27 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:29 pm
I did say, #2 "Brains are not conscious."
I certainly did not say, "Consciousness is a property of the entire universe," because it isn't. I'm not even certain how any property could be a property of the entire universe.
You implied that dead brains were an exception, since you said that consciousness was like gravity and acceleartion which are acting at all places and at all times.

Unless you regard things like existence itself, or extension (time and space) properties, nothing is a property of the entire universe. Properties are only properties of existents and do not exist at all independent of the entities they are the properties of. Mass only exists as a property of physical entities. If you mean by, "of the entire universe," that, "every entity in the universe has mass," I would agree with that. In that sense, consciousness is definitely not a property of the entire universe, just as life is not a property of the entire universe, but only a property of living organisms, consciousness is only a property of living conscious organisms.
So you seem to be coming towards my view that consciousness is in fact an emrgent and special property of healthy neural matter.
Unless there is something you have yet to explain???
If you see that way, that's fine.
:roll:
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