Subconscious mind is huge

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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Subconscious mind is huge

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It not only creates the reality that the conscious mind experience. It is also responsible for even the motion of your fingers and for that it needs to have access to our thoughts. That is true since we, conscious minds, do not actively get involved in activating the motion of our bodies.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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bahman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 12:15 am It not only creates the reality that the conscious mind experience. It is also responsible for even the motion of your fingers and for that it needs to have access to our thoughts. That is true since we, conscious minds, do not actively get involved in activating the motion of our bodies.
Do you believe that the subconscious mind literally creates material things? Or do you believe that there are no real material things (they're just mental phenomena that do not seem like mental phenomena)?
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RCSaunders
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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bahman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 12:15 am It not only creates the reality that the conscious mind experience. It is also responsible for even the motion of your fingers and for that it needs to have access to our thoughts. That is true since we, conscious minds, do not actively get involved in activating the motion of our bodies.
There is no such thing as the subconscious. It's the invention of the crackpot Anna Freud to explain her so-called defense mechanisms.
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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 1:26 pm
bahman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 12:15 am It not only creates the reality that the conscious mind experience. It is also responsible for even the motion of your fingers and for that it needs to have access to our thoughts. That is true since we, conscious minds, do not actively get involved in activating the motion of our bodies.
Do you believe that the subconscious mind literally creates material things?
It creates mental, what conscious mind experiences for example.
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 1:26 pm Or do you believe that there are no real material things (they're just mental phenomena that do not seem like mental phenomena)?
I think that there are material things. I don't know what they are.
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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 9:48 pm
bahman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 12:15 am It not only creates the reality that the conscious mind experience. It is also responsible for even the motion of your fingers and for that it needs to have access to our thoughts. That is true since we, conscious minds, do not actively get involved in activating the motion of our bodies.
There is no such thing as the subconscious. It's the invention of the crackpot Anna Freud to explain her so-called defense mechanisms.
Let me give you an example. The motion of different parts of your body is initiated in different parts of your brain. Is that you, conscious mind, who is in charge of stimulating different parts of your brain?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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bahman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 11:52 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 1:26 pm
bahman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 12:15 am It not only creates the reality that the conscious mind experience. It is also responsible for even the motion of your fingers and for that it needs to have access to our thoughts. That is true since we, conscious minds, do not actively get involved in activating the motion of our bodies.
Do you believe that the subconscious mind literally creates material things?
It creates mental, what conscious mind experiences for example.
The conscious mind doesn't only experience mental things, does it?
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RCSaunders
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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bahman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 11:56 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 9:48 pm
bahman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 12:15 am It not only creates the reality that the conscious mind experience. It is also responsible for even the motion of your fingers and for that it needs to have access to our thoughts. That is true since we, conscious minds, do not actively get involved in activating the motion of our bodies.
There is no such thing as the subconscious. It's the invention of the crackpot Anna Freud to explain her so-called defense mechanisms.
Let me give you an example. The motion of different parts of your body is initiated in different parts of your brain. Is that you, conscious mind, who is in charge of stimulating different parts of your brain?
Even if you were right, what would that have to do with something called the, "subconscious?" However, your description of the relationship between conscious choice and physical action is wrong. The conscious choice does not initiate a physical event, because the choice and the action are not separate things, but two parts or aspects of the same phenomenon. The action is the physical part, the choice is the living part. Like the behavior of any living cell, every action is both physical and living, but no living behavior is possible to a non-living entity.
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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Captain Nemo communicating with the Nautilus...

-Imp
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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 12:32 am
bahman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 11:52 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 1:26 pm

Do you believe that the subconscious mind literally creates material things?
It creates mental, what conscious mind experiences for example.
The conscious mind doesn't only experience mental things, does it?
No, it does only experience mental things.
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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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RCSaunders wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 12:47 am
bahman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 11:56 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 9:48 pm
There is no such thing as the subconscious. It's the invention of the crackpot Anna Freud to explain her so-called defense mechanisms.
Let me give you an example. The motion of different parts of your body is initiated in different parts of your brain. Is that you, conscious mind, who is in charge of stimulating different parts of your brain?
Even if you were right, what would that have to do with something called the, "subconscious?"
It has to be a mind since otherwise, it cannot cause change. Any change requires a mind and I have an argument for it. Call it whatever you like.
RCSaunders wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 12:47 am However, your description of the relationship between conscious choice and physical action is wrong. The conscious choice does not initiate a physical event, because the choice and the action are not separate things, but two parts or aspects of the same phenomenon. The action is the physical part, the choice is the living part. Like the behavior of any living cell, every action is both physical and living, but no living behavior is possible to a non-living entity.
We are dealing with two phenomena, conscious choice, and physical movement. What I am claiming is that it is through a subconscious activity that a conscious choice is translated to physical movement. That is very clear. Our conscious mind does not directly stimulate different parts of the brain for movement.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:30 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 12:32 am
bahman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 11:52 pm
It creates mental, what conscious mind experiences for example.
The conscious mind doesn't only experience mental things, does it?
No, it does only experience mental things.
Right, so some of what consciousness experiences isn't created by the mind, then.
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:38 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 12:47 am
bahman wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 11:56 pm
Let me give you an example. The motion of different parts of your body is initiated in different parts of your brain. Is that you, conscious mind, who is in charge of stimulating different parts of your brain?
Even if you were right, what would that have to do with something called the, "subconscious?"
It has to be a mind since otherwise, it cannot cause change. Any change requires a mind and I have an argument for it. Call it whatever you like.
RCSaunders wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 12:47 am However, your description of the relationship between conscious choice and physical action is wrong. The conscious choice does not initiate a physical event, because the choice and the action are not separate things, but two parts or aspects of the same phenomenon. The action is the physical part, the choice is the living part. Like the behavior of any living cell, every action is both physical and living, but no living behavior is possible to a non-living entity.
We are dealing with two phenomena, conscious choice, and physical movement.
Not at all. Most choice does not involve any physical movement at all, because most choice is about what one thinks. When one decides to act overtly it is never a, "choice followed by an action," but always a continuous integrated act between consciousness and the physical behavior. It isn't like your childish view of volition: the thought, "hand move," followed by the hand doing something on its own, or even a thought followed by some event in the brain. The events that occur in the brain and can be detected (though very poorly) are associated with physical actions, because those brain events are associated with consciousness, some related to motor nerves related to specific physical actions.
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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 1:33 pm
bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:30 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 12:32 am

The conscious mind doesn't only experience mental things, does it?
No, it does only experience mental things.
Right, so some of what consciousness experiences isn't created by the mind, then.
I think so. Other minds probably.
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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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RCSaunders wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:42 pm
bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:38 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 12:47 am
Even if you were right, what would that have to do with something called the, "subconscious?"
It has to be a mind since otherwise, it cannot cause change. Any change requires a mind and I have an argument for it. Call it whatever you like.
RCSaunders wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 12:47 am However, your description of the relationship between conscious choice and physical action is wrong. The conscious choice does not initiate a physical event, because the choice and the action are not separate things, but two parts or aspects of the same phenomenon. The action is the physical part, the choice is the living part. Like the behavior of any living cell, every action is both physical and living, but no living behavior is possible to a non-living entity.
We are dealing with two phenomena, conscious choice, and physical movement.
Not at all. Most choice does not involve any physical movement at all, because most choice is about what one thinks. When one decides to act overtly it is never a, "choice followed by an action," but always a continuous integrated act between consciousness and the physical behavior. It isn't like your childish view of volition: the thought, "hand move," followed by the hand doing something on its own, or even a thought followed by some event in the brain. The events that occur in the brain and can be detected (though very poorly) are associated with physical actions, because those brain events are associated with consciousness, some related to motor nerves related to specific physical actions.
I am specifically interested in the phenomena of moving the body rather than thoughts.
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Re: Subconscious mind is huge

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bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 10:39 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:42 pm
bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:38 am
It has to be a mind since otherwise, it cannot cause change. Any change requires a mind and I have an argument for it. Call it whatever you like.


We are dealing with two phenomena, conscious choice, and physical movement.
Not at all. Most choice does not involve any physical movement at all, because most choice is about what one thinks. When one decides to act overtly it is never a, "choice followed by an action," but always a continuous integrated act between consciousness and the physical behavior. It isn't like your childish view of volition: the thought, "hand move," followed by the hand doing something on its own, or even a thought followed by some event in the brain. The events that occur in the brain and can be detected (though very poorly) are associated with physical actions, because those brain events are associated with consciousness, some related to motor nerves related to specific physical actions.
I am specifically interested in the phenomena of moving the body rather than thoughts.
OK!
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