The Human Brain Is Incapable Of Understanding Anything

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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RCSaunders
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Re: The Human Brain Is Incapable Of Understanding Anything

Post by RCSaunders »

Sculptor wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:25 pm My consciousness is a field generated by my physical brain. WHat you are asking is impossible.
You are mired in a myth that consciousness is separate from the physical brain, it is not and could not be.
Who you are as a person is vested 100% in the unique organisation of your brain, and without that you are just so much dead meat.
There is one thing you have said here with which a agree: Consciousness is not, "separate," from the physical brain.

What you began with, however, is extremely interesting to me, because, as far as I remember, no one has ever expressed this view in exactly the way you have, and I'm really interested in what you mean by it:
My consciousness is a field generated by my physical brain.
Since I do not know exactly what you mean, I must honestly admit I have to conjecture a little here.

1. As far as I know, a field, in science, always has some kind of physical properties, like a, "magnetic," or "electrical" field. Does the, "consciousness field," have any physical properties?

2. Also, as far as I know, it is a field's properties that are how fields are first discovered by science. How was the, "consciousness field," discovered. (And who discovered it?)

3. Finally, what are the properties of the, "consciousness field?"

I appreciate your explanations, since this is all new to me.
Skepdick
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Re: The Human Brain Is Incapable Of Understanding Anything

Post by Skepdick »

SteveKlinko wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:22 pm Problem is you are trying to think like a Computer, so you can't think Abstractly.
Abstract thinking is precisely what I am doing.

The meaning of those symbols "10" and "2" is entirely abstract.
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Sculptor
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Re: The Human Brain Is Incapable Of Understanding Anything

Post by Sculptor »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:43 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:25 pm My consciousness is a field generated by my physical brain. WHat you are asking is impossible.
You are mired in a myth that consciousness is separate from the physical brain, it is not and could not be.
Who you are as a person is vested 100% in the unique organisation of your brain, and without that you are just so much dead meat.
There is one thing you have said here with which a agree: Consciousness is not, "separate," from the physical brain.

What you began with, however, is extremely interesting to me, because, as far as I remember, no one has ever expressed this view in exactly the way you have, and I'm really interested in what you mean by it:
My consciousness is a field generated by my physical brain.
Since I do not know exactly what you mean, I must honestly admit I have to conjecture a little here.

1. As far as I know, a field, in science, always has some kind of physical properties, like a, "magnetic," or "electrical" field. Does the, "consciousness field," have any physical properties?

2. Also, as far as I know, it is a field's properties that are how fields are first discovered by science. How was the, "consciousness field," discovered. (And who discovered it?)

3. Finally, what are the properties of the, "consciousness field?"

I appreciate your explanations, since this is all new to me.
SInce consciousness is ineffable it seems reasonable given the emprical realities of the necessity of the brain for consciousness that it could not be described in any other way.
As far as I know this is not part of any standard theory, but just my own way of describing what I think would best explain what we know.
I'm sorry if that is a disappointment.
If you can agree that the brain is the seat of our memory, soul, personality, consciousness, mind - and any other "non-material" or abstract concept, yet there is no doubt that a healthy working brain, supplied with sensory inputs, and material needs such as oxygen and fuel are all needed for it fucntion; and that damages to the brain can lead to massive changes in all of the above - loss of memory, changed in personality etc.. It follows that the mond (etc.) has to be the electircal activity of the neurones. Calling that a field seems all to obvious, at least a shorthand for something that may never be perfectly understood.
Hope that goes some way to answering your question.
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RCSaunders
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Re: The Human Brain Is Incapable Of Understanding Anything

Post by RCSaunders »

Sculptor wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:33 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:43 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:25 pm My consciousness is a field generated by my physical brain. WHat you are asking is impossible.
You are mired in a myth that consciousness is separate from the physical brain, it is not and could not be.
Who you are as a person is vested 100% in the unique organisation of your brain, and without that you are just so much dead meat.
There is one thing you have said here with which a agree: Consciousness is not, "separate," from the physical brain.

What you began with, however, is extremely interesting to me, because, as far as I remember, no one has ever expressed this view in exactly the way you have, and I'm really interested in what you mean by it:
My consciousness is a field generated by my physical brain.
Since I do not know exactly what you mean, I must honestly admit I have to conjecture a little here.

1. As far as I know, a field, in science, always has some kind of physical properties, like a, "magnetic," or "electrical" field. Does the, "consciousness field," have any physical properties?

2. Also, as far as I know, it is a field's properties that are how fields are first discovered by science. How was the, "consciousness field," discovered. (And who discovered it?)

3. Finally, what are the properties of the, "consciousness field?"

I appreciate your explanations, since this is all new to me.
SInce consciousness is ineffable it seems reasonable given the emprical realities of the necessity of the brain for consciousness that it could not be described in any other way.
As far as I know this is not part of any standard theory, but just my own way of describing what I think would best explain what we know.
I'm sorry if that is a disappointment.
If you can agree that the brain is the seat of our memory, soul, personality, consciousness, mind - and any other "non-material" or abstract concept, yet there is no doubt that a healthy working brain, supplied with sensory inputs, and material needs such as oxygen and fuel are all needed for it fucntion; and that damages to the brain can lead to massive changes in all of the above - loss of memory, changed in personality etc.. It follows that the mond (etc.) has to be the electircal activity of the neurones. Calling that a field seems all to obvious, at least a shorthand for something that may never be perfectly understood.
Hope that goes some way to answering your question.
I think that was a good honest answer. I appreciate that it is your, "way of describing what [you] think would best explain what we know."

I certainly agree the physical brain and neurological system are the means by which we are conscious of whatever we are directly conscious, and that memory is a function of the brain.

Our main difference is that I do not think consciousness is ineffable. It certainly cannot be described in terms of any physical attributes (like mass, weight, energy, temperature, shape, size, position or in terms of any physical behavior like velocity, acceleration, or time) but it certainly has a very specific attributes which every conscious organism experiences as their consciousness. I know that the popular view today is that consciousness is some kind of, "product of brain behavior," but no brain behavior explains or describes consciousness as it is actually experienced. The only thing that is established is a kind of rough correlation between some activity of the neurological system and conscious perception itself.

If I go further I'll be explaining my view, which is not my intention. Thanks again for the explanation. We don't have to agree.
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Sculptor
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Re: The Human Brain Is Incapable Of Understanding Anything

Post by Sculptor »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:23 am
Sculptor wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:33 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:43 pm
There is one thing you have said here with which a agree: Consciousness is not, "separate," from the physical brain.

What you began with, however, is extremely interesting to me, because, as far as I remember, no one has ever expressed this view in exactly the way you have, and I'm really interested in what you mean by it:



Since I do not know exactly what you mean, I must honestly admit I have to conjecture a little here.

1. As far as I know, a field, in science, always has some kind of physical properties, like a, "magnetic," or "electrical" field. Does the, "consciousness field," have any physical properties?

2. Also, as far as I know, it is a field's properties that are how fields are first discovered by science. How was the, "consciousness field," discovered. (And who discovered it?)

3. Finally, what are the properties of the, "consciousness field?"

I appreciate your explanations, since this is all new to me.
SInce consciousness is ineffable it seems reasonable given the emprical realities of the necessity of the brain for consciousness that it could not be described in any other way.
As far as I know this is not part of any standard theory, but just my own way of describing what I think would best explain what we know.
I'm sorry if that is a disappointment.
If you can agree that the brain is the seat of our memory, soul, personality, consciousness, mind - and any other "non-material" or abstract concept, yet there is no doubt that a healthy working brain, supplied with sensory inputs, and material needs such as oxygen and fuel are all needed for it fucntion; and that damages to the brain can lead to massive changes in all of the above - loss of memory, changed in personality etc.. It follows that the mond (etc.) has to be the electircal activity of the neurones. Calling that a field seems all to obvious, at least a shorthand for something that may never be perfectly understood.
Hope that goes some way to answering your question.
I think that was a good honest answer. I appreciate that it is your, "way of describing what [you] think would best explain what we know."

I certainly agree the physical brain and neurological system are the means by which we are conscious of whatever we are directly conscious, and that memory is a function of the brain.

Our main difference is that I do not think consciousness is ineffable. It certainly cannot be described in terms of any physical attributes (like mass, weight, energy, temperature, shape, size, position or in terms of any physical behavior like velocity, acceleration, or time) but it certainly has a very specific attributes which every conscious organism experiences as their consciousness. I know that the popular view today is that consciousness is some kind of, "product of brain behavior," but no brain behavior explains or describes consciousness as it is actually experienced. The only thing that is established is a kind of rough correlation between some activity of the neurological system and conscious perception itself.

If I go further I'll be explaining my view, which is not my intention. Thanks again for the explanation. We don't have to agree.
Well I think we do agree.
When we attempt to "describe" consciousness, (ineffable being not indecribable), I think we are usually reduced to sort of "well you know what I mean", as people who are also conscious know what it is. But as langauge is a series of metphors, and there is nothing else quite like consciousness, then we have no words to describe it.
Consciousness it not like anything else we experience, it is our experience.
The best I can get to is; Consciousness/mind etc is what the brain does.
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RCSaunders
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Re: The Human Brain Is Incapable Of Understanding Anything

Post by RCSaunders »

Sculptor wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:15 am Consciousness it not like anything else we experience, it is our experience.
Of course. It is all our experience, which, as you point out, cannot be described in terms of anything else. At least we agree on that, thank you!
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Re: The Human Brain Is Incapable Of Understanding Anything

Post by Sculptor »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 4:09 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:15 am Consciousness it not like anything else we experience, it is our experience.
Of course. It is all our experience, which, as you point out, cannot be described in terms of anything else. At least we agree on that, thank you!
np
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Re: The Human Brain Is Incapable Of Understanding Anything

Post by SteveKlinko »

Sculptor wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:25 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:20 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 8:04 pm

Sorry but I cannot understand that since "The Human Brain Is Incapable Of Understanding Anything".
You should try to use your Conscious Mind, not your Physical Mind (Brain).
My consciousness is a field generated by my physical brain. WHat you are asking is impossible.
You are mired in a myth that consciousness is separate from the physical brain, it is not and could not be.
Who you are as a person is vested 100% in the unique organisation of your brain, and without that you are just so much dead meat.
That may be true. But the thing that makes me pursue the Connection Perspective is the absolute Zero explanation there is for Conscious Experience being in the Neurons or Emerging from the Neurons. Science has made tremendous progress in the understanding of Brain Physiology but there has been no proportional progress in the understanding of Conscious Experience. There is in fact Zero Progress. It's time to look at other possibilities and perspectives. That's all I'm doing.
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Re: The Human Brain Is Incapable Of Understanding Anything

Post by Sculptor »

SteveKlinko wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:30 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:25 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:20 pm
You should try to use your Conscious Mind, not your Physical Mind (Brain).
My consciousness is a field generated by my physical brain. WHat you are asking is impossible.
You are mired in a myth that consciousness is separate from the physical brain, it is not and could not be.
Who you are as a person is vested 100% in the unique organisation of your brain, and without that you are just so much dead meat.
That may be true. But the thing that makes me pursue the Connection Perspective is the absolute Zero explanation there is for Conscious Experience being in the Neurons or Emerging from the Neurons.
False.
Sceince demonstrates the changes in brain activity in different states of consciousness.
Science has made tremendous progress in the understanding of Brain Physiology but there has been no proportional progress in the understanding of Conscious Experience.
We all understand conscious experience fully.
There is in fact Zero Progress. It's time to look at other possibilities and perspectives. That's all I'm doing.
No you are not. You are just failing to understand what is going on.
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Re: The Human Brain Is Incapable Of Understanding Anything

Post by SteveKlinko »

Sculptor wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:35 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:30 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:25 pm

My consciousness is a field generated by my physical brain. WHat you are asking is impossible.
You are mired in a myth that consciousness is separate from the physical brain, it is not and could not be.
Who you are as a person is vested 100% in the unique organisation of your brain, and without that you are just so much dead meat.
That may be true. But the thing that makes me pursue the Connection Perspective is the absolute Zero explanation there is for Conscious Experience being in the Neurons or Emerging from the Neurons.
False.
Sceince demonstrates the changes in brain activity in different states of consciousness.
Science has made tremendous progress in the understanding of Brain Physiology but there has been no proportional progress in the understanding of Conscious Experience.
We all understand conscious experience fully.
There is in fact Zero Progress. It's time to look at other possibilities and perspectives. That's all I'm doing.
No you are not. You are just failing to understand what is going on.
I'm listening. What's going on?
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