Is Consciousness Necessary?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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commonsense
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by commonsense »

Can we discuss the necessity of consciousness without an agreement on what consciousness is?

Can consciousness be reduced to a mere state where mind and brain are fully functional?

Do we need to identify those functions in order to evaluate the necessity of consciousness?
seeds
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by seeds »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:31 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:28 pm
Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:27 pm
I have a model for minds.

My mind is a computer. Sensory inputs and outpututs, memory, CPU.

I don't have a model for consciousness.
Like I say, take a philosophy of mind course. It'll explain a lot.
Here's a good, thought-provoking audio lecture. I highly recommend it, although it doesn't beat a classroom with an astute professor to interact with and clarify things and bounce ideas off of.
Gary (assuming that my malware protection isn't blocking questionable sites), I see neither a link nor even a title of said lecture.
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Gary Childress
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by Gary Childress »

seeds wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:59 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:31 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:28 pm

Like I say, take a philosophy of mind course. It'll explain a lot.
Here's a good, thought-provoking audio lecture. I highly recommend it, although it doesn't beat a classroom with an astute professor to interact with and clarify things and bounce ideas off of.
Gary (assuming that my malware protection isn't blocking questionable sites), I see neither a link nor even a title of said lecture.
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https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses ... g-machines

My bad, I had to edit it into the post where I thought I had posted it. It would seem that I was remiss.
commonsense
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by commonsense »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:31 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:28 pm Like I say, take a philosophy of mind course. It'll explain a lot.
Philosophy doesn't explain anything - it just muddies the water.

I much prefer cognitive and neuroscience+AI research when it comes to understanding what minds are and how they work.

Still. I have no idea what "consciousness" is or whether I have it.
Skep,

Perhaps the following will provide you with a basic understanding for now.

I think consciousness is similar to your computer model for minds. There are sensory inputs and motor outputs, memory and a CPU. If the CPU could monitor itself, you might have a computer with self-awareness.

For completeness of your computer model of consciousness, your computer would have to recognize emotion, be able to interpret the emotions it perceives, and emit emotions to others, We’re not there yet, but computer scientists are working on it.
commonsense
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by commonsense »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:43 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:39 pm Too cute but just check out the course I listed above. A philosophic perspective is better than that of a clever fool.
How?

All that Philosophy gave you was a problem without a solution in telling you that you are conscious without explaining what that even means.

I don't have your problem.

Seems I am better off than you are.
Skep,

You say you don’t have this problem. Am I correct in thinking that in science the problem doesn’t exist?

How do you suppose science would approach, or how would it solve, this problem if consciousness were to be addressed scientifically?
commonsense
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by commonsense »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:44 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:43 pm I know that I am conscious. You don't seem to know if your conscious or not? The latter sounds more like "confusion" to me.
I am as much confused about my consciousness as you are confused about your wureflumpengesness.

Maybe you should take a course on the philosophy of bullshit. So that you can learn what wureflumpengesness means, and why you have a problem.
I agree.
commonsense
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by commonsense »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:04 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:57 pm Consciousness refers to mental experience.
What does "mental experience" refer to?
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:57 pm What does wurefulmpengesness refer to?
I'm sorry about that. I know what I mean by wurefulmpengesness. Putting it into words or trying to "define" it in a simple sentence or even a paragraph is extremely difficult, though. Wurefulmpengesness is purely subjective. It can only be vertmuxed. I'm sure you have your own idea about what wurefulmpengesness is. If so, I'd like to hear it.

The point I am making is you've ascribed some denotation/meaning to the English word "consciousness". And then you've stuck the label to yourself thinking that it describes some aspect of you.
Skep,

Well put.
commonsense
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by commonsense »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:36 pm
Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:19 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:12 pm Or if you would like to refer to consciousness as wurefulmpengesness, then fine. You surely possess wurefulmpengesness. Perhaps it's something similar to consciousness.
I don't know if wurefulmpengesness refers to consicousness. I don't know what consciousness refers to.
As I said, try the lecture I posted the link to or take a class in philosophy of mind and see if that helps. I think you will have some "aha" experiences when they start to attempt to define and talk about "consciousness." Otherwise, I don't know what to tell you. It's a difficult concept to wrestle with and define, sort of like the word "justice" is a difficult concept to define. But we use the word in a meaningful way all the time. Perhaps the fact that we all use the word regularly but don't all agree as to what the definition is, is what makes it so fascinating.
Yes fascinating, and problematic.

Generally, if two or more individuals don’t agree on a word’s definition, communication amongst these individuals is hindered.

As an example, I offer a communication snafu (please let me know if I should’ve spelled snafu out as it is an acronym that only approximates the MW definition) I encountered some years ago.

There were uncertified Medical Assistants (MAs) and Certified Medical Assistants (CMAs) working at the medical center where I was teaching clinical skills.

My manager often referenced a past project (before I was hired) that resulted in the leveling of the MA’s and the CMAs. I understood that the project placed the duties and responsibilities of both on the same level.

Later I was to find out that leveling the two kinds meant placing them on two separate levels of duties and responsibilities.

My understanding for several years of my employment was exactly opposite to the intended meaning.

Since then I have been trying to spot this type of situation much sooner.
Skepdick
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by Skepdick »

commonsense wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:33 pm Skep,

You say you don’t have this problem. Am I correct in thinking that in science the problem doesn’t exist?

How do you suppose science would approach, or how would it solve, this problem if consciousness were to be addressed scientifically?
In science/engineering, defining the problem is half the solution.

So IF consciousness poses a "problem" what is the problem exactly?
seeds
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by seeds »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:29 pm Is consciousness necessary for anything other than itself or is it entirely superfluous to an entity that possesses it?
Well, according to certain interpretations of quantum mechanics, it is tentatively suggested that without the presence of consciousness, observing and interacting with the informationally-based underpinning of matter, then the three-dimensional features of the universe would not take form.

In other words, without the presence of consciousness,...

(which is simply an emergent property of life and mind)

...then everything in the universe would exist as a spread-out wave of superpositioned probabilities that have no reality as we understand reality to be.

So, at least from that one speculative perspective, it would seem that consciousness may be extremely necessary in order for there to exist positionally-fixed, three-dimensional "objects" (such as stars and planets) suspended in a spatial arena.
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bahman
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by bahman »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:29 pm Is consciousness necessary for anything other than itself or is it entirely superfluous to an entity that possesses it? In other words, can everything that a human can do be mimicked through unconscious mechanical and computational means, or is there something that consciousness does for us that cannot be replicated mechanically or computationally (other than to experience sensations or whatnot)? To put it yet another way, it seems relatively intuitive to me to say that a computer designed to play chess doesn't experience anything when it plays chess as a human does when s/he plays chess and yet a computer can be very good at chess without being conscious.
Consciousness is the state of being aware. It is an ability of mind without it you cannot have any change.
RogerSH
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by RogerSH »

commonsense wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:57 pm Can we discuss the necessity of consciousness without an agreement on what consciousness is?
Or can we look for a more productive partial definition? After all, similar question were asked about "life" for centuries. Certainly in a scientific context it seems clear today that life is essentially a set of mutually supportive capabilities enabled by extremely complex arrangements of organic material. There is no hard-edged distinction between living & non-living, but an enormous difference between what is unambiguously living and what is not. Can't the same be said about consciousness? The term is clear and useful when applied to awake, healthy humans of more than a few years old, but ambiguous when applied to people dreaming, other creatures, the brain-damaged, or the newborn, simply because some of the capabilities usually present are missing or very weak. Then questions like "is a rock alive" or "is a rock conscious" can be replaced by a series of questions like "can a rock extract thermodynamically useful energy from the environment?" and "can a rock construct a model of its environment?" (No; no!)

Then the original question seems to be: are the capabilities of consciousness necessary? (Necessary for what? For providing the capabilities of consciousness??)
AlexW
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by AlexW »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:29 pm Is consciousness necessary for anything other than itself or is it entirely superfluous to an entity that possesses it? In other words, can everything that a human can do be mimicked through unconscious mechanical and computational means, or is there something that consciousness does for us that cannot be replicated mechanically or computationally (other than to experience sensations or whatnot)? To put it yet another way, it seems relatively intuitive to me to say that a computer designed to play chess doesn't experience anything when it plays chess as a human does when s/he plays chess and yet a computer can be very good at chess without being conscious.
@OP:
Consciousness is necessary for experience to happen in the first place - it is primary, experience arises "in" consciousness.
No consciousness, no experience, no perception, no thought, no...
It follows that every idea, every concept, every belief and interpretation is only an expression of (arises in) consciousness - consciousness is/exists with or without experience/perception/thinking.

To answer your question: Is consciousness necessary for anything other than itself?
Yes, it is necessary for any- and everything to arise, but it is itself untouched/unchanged by whatever arises within it (like a cinema screen is untouched by whatever movie played out on it). It is as such not surprising that (according to QM) the act of conscious observation is the key for anything to happen (and even: come into existence in the first place).

Furthermore: It is a misguided belief that people "have" consciousness - its rather the opposite: consciousness "has" people (and many other things... like stones, trees, bugs and bears) :-)
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by SteveKlinko »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:29 pm Is consciousness necessary for anything other than itself or is it entirely superfluous to an entity that possesses it? In other words, can everything that a human can do be mimicked through unconscious mechanical and computational means, or is there something that consciousness does for us that cannot be replicated mechanically or computationally (other than to experience sensations or whatnot)? To put it yet another way, it seems relatively intuitive to me to say that a computer designed to play chess doesn't experience anything when it plays chess as a human does when s/he plays chess and yet a computer can be very good at chess without being conscious.
Scientists can describe the Neural Activity that occurs in the Brain when we See. But they seem to be completely puzzled by the Conscious Visual experience that we have that is correlated with the Neural Activity. Incredibly, some even come to the conclusion that the Conscious experience is not even necessary! They can not find the Conscious experience in the Neurons so the experience must not have any function in the Visual process. They believe that the Neural Activity is sufficient for us to move around in the world without bumping into things. This is insane denial of the obvious purpose for Visual Consciousness. Neural Activity is not enough. We would be blind without the Conscious Visual experience. From a Systems Engineering point of view it is clear that the Conscious Visual experience is a further Processing stage that comes after the Neural Activity. The Conscious Visual experience is the thing that allows us to move around in the world. The Conscious Visual experience contains vast amounts of information about the external world all packed up into a single thing. To implement all the functionality of the Conscious Visual experience with only Neural Activity would probably require a Brain as big as a refrigerator.

Scientists should not disregard the Conscious Visual experience. It's just another type of Data that can be analyzed. We should call it Conscious Data. We use and analyze this Conscious Visual Data all the time without realizing it. For example when I reach for my coffee mug I have a Conscious Visual experience where I See my hand moving toward the coffee mug. If My hand is off track I sense this in the Conscious Visual experience and adjust the movement of my hand. If I did not have the Conscious Visual experience I would not be able to pick up my coffee mug, or at least it would be much more difficult with just Neural Activity. So the Conscious Visual experience is just Data that helps us interact with the world. This Conscious Visual Data is absolutely necessary for us to function. Similar arguments can be made for the Conscious Auditory experience, the Conscious Smell experience, the Conscious Taste experience, and the Conscious Touch experience. All these experiences are just a type of Data that our Conscious Minds can analyze.
RogerSH
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Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?

Post by RogerSH »

AlexW wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:11 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:29 pm Is consciousness necessary for anything other than itself or is it entirely superfluous to an entity that possesses it? In other words, can everything that a human can do be mimicked through unconscious mechanical and computational means, or is there something that consciousness does for us that cannot be replicated mechanically or computationally (other than to experience sensations or whatnot)? To put it yet another way, it seems relatively intuitive to me to say that a computer designed to play chess doesn't experience anything when it plays chess as a human does when s/he plays chess and yet a computer can be very good at chess without being conscious.
Consciousness is necessary for experience to happen in the first place - it is primary, experience arises "in" consciousness.
No consciousness, no experience, no perception...
“Perception” is certainly one of the “capabilities of consciousness” I referred to in my earlier post, provided perception is understood as sensing plus understanding of the sensory input, or to put it another way, relating the sensation to the wider context of everything else that is experienced.

This makes it useful to consider Tononi’s “Phi” theory of consciousness, what he calls “integrated information”; or in simple terms, consciousness as we know it is the manifestation of unimaginably varied processes being integrated to an unimaginable extent. I’d agree with those critics who say that this high “phi” is a necessary condition for consciousness, not a definition of it – if the integration doesn’t take place in the right way to provide a sort of moment-to-moment continuity, for example, it could hardly give rise to experience. Nevertheless integration seems to be very much what consciousness is about, so to go back to Gary’s original question, the huge benefit of consciousness, or of the processes of which it is a manifestation, is precisely the integration it provides.

The problem with trying to imagine such integration occurring without consciousness is that, as an earlier post by mickthinks reminded us, our only access to consciousness in other minds is by projecting our own consciousness on them - and I cannot imagine my not having consciousness, since imagination requires consciousness.
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