Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by SteveKlinko »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:47 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:56 pm Creativity seems like an almost impossible topic of Consciousness to deal with. But I believe that given some Logical Thinking we will be able to explore Creativity. With the Perspective of the Inter Mind Model (IMM), we can ask the question: Is Creativity a process in the Conscious Mind (CM) or is it simply Neural Activity of the right kind in the Physical Mind (PM)?

Music can be very Creative, but Music can also not be very Creative. Listening to Random Noise or Random Tones can be interesting for a short period time. However, Random Noise and Tones are not very Creative and are not really even Music. I think that Enjoyment is very important when it comes to Artistic Creations. Much Music is written, but the Music that is truly Creative and Original has a Special Essence. People Enjoy it. I think it is clear that the appreciation of that Special Essence of the Music needs to take place in a CM. Scientists can study and measure all the Neural Activity related to this, and still know nothing about the Enjoyment of the Conscious Experience of the Music. The IMM Logically compels us to understand that Music is for the CM and not for the PM.

Claims about Computers creatively writing Music are misleading. Let's explore the Creative Process for Human Music and for Computer Music. The Human composer will get Inspired by a particular line of Musical Notes while Hearing them in the CM. The Human composer might play these Notes on a Piano, Guitar, or other instrument to get a more robust Auditory Experience than what is in the Imagination of the CM. The Human composer will develop a Desire to write the Music. The Human composer is constantly Hearing the Notes at the CM level in order to write the Music. This is because the Human composer instinctively knows the Music is being composed for the Enjoyment of a CM.

Computer Music is not produced this way. Computer Music is generated by Algorithms, Rules, and Random Note generators. The Computer is not Hearing, as a Conscious Experience, any of the Music that is being generated because a Computer has no Connection to a CM. The Computer program is trying to generate Music for the Enjoyment of a CM without being able to Experience it as a CM. It cannot Hear what it is Generating. The Computer cannot Enjoy the Music and it can never Listen to the Music like a CM would be able to do. The Computer does not Desire to write Music and it does not even know that it generated Music. It's all Algorithmic and Mechanistic. It is obvious that a Computer is unable to write Music for a CM, and there is no way to Program that ability into the Computer with Software. It can only be concluded that a Computer cannot Creatively Write Music, but rather it Generates or Calculates the Music. When it is realized that a Computer is merely Calculating Music, it becomes completely understandable that there is no Creativity involved.
It appears that computers can write music that rivals human composition based on whatever initial programming. I think the important question that you are getting at is whether or not computers are conscious when they do that. Right now, I think that is sort of the main difference we think of when we differentiate between a human and a purely computational device or computer--whether or not a computer is "conscious" or has conscious experience during the process of creating. Or another way of putting the problem: can creation and learning occur without consciousness associated with it? Is consciousness necessary for any kind of learning or creation to occur or can something at least like it occur among unconscious entities?
The Human Programmers are trying to Creatively write Music with their Algorithms. Usually the Algorithm incorporates some style information or specializes in the particular style of a certain composer. I believe I have read stories on how an Algorithm was writing Music that sounded like Beethoven. Nice programming trick, but it is just a Simulation of Beethoven and nothing more. Music originates as a Conscious Experience in the Mind. Computers are of course just Machines so there is no Conscious aspect to them. The Machine is not going to all of a sudden invent a new Genre of Music. New Genres come from something in the Experience of the Music, rather than from underlying structures of Music. Claims that fast Computations and Complexity mean that the Machine is Conscious are Science Fiction fantasies. There is no Scientific Chain of Logic to show this.

So yes, I think the Machine must have some kind of Conscious Experience of the Music for it to be Creatively writing the Music. Otherwise it is just Calculating and Simulating Music.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:54 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:01 pm I think the 64 million dollar question, though, is whether or not a computer is "conscious."
It's not even a 2 cent question. It's a question Philosophers keep asking in attempt to stay relevant.
If I don't know what consciousness is (and I don't) how could possibly claim that I am "conscious"?

It's just confusion over how we use language. It's a trick that confuses your brain into thinking the question is meaningful.

You are perfectly aware that the question "Am I rumfless?" is meaningless because you don't know what being rumfless entails.

So why doesn't your brain come to the same realisation when you ask the question "Am I conscious?"
How could you possibly answer that question if you don't know what consciousness entails?
It's because we do in fact know what our own Consciousness is. It Exists in a place in our Conscious Minds. The problem is that we cannot translate our Knowingness of our own Conscious Experiences into any known Scientific Phenomenon. The fact that nobody, all through the history of Human Thought, has been able to describe Conscious Experience in terms of any Physical Phenomena of the known Physical World should start to make people think that just maybe Conscious Experience really really is some new Phenomenon that is not in any Category of Known Scientific Phenomena. The Mindless obsession with trying to push things like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, or the Salty Taste into the Neurons is getting played out and a waste of Research Time.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by SteveKlinko »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:39 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:35 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:33 pm I am indeed.
Then you either didn't understand or you're simply ignoring something I've explained multiple times already:

Not just for brains/consciousness, but in general, for everything, PROPERTIES ARE DIFFERENT FROM DIFFERENT SPATIOTEMPORAL REFERENCE POINTS. Hopefully you'll notice that this time. Don't ignore it. If you don't get it, ask for clarification about it.

So this means that a third-person spatiotemporal reference point is NOT going to have the same properties as a first-person spatiotemporal reference point of the same thing.
So how is my mental image "physical"? right now I see a computer screen in front of me with typing on it. Where is that computer screen right now? Where is the computer screen 2 seconds later when I think about it after seeing it? These are real problems with the physicalist view of mind.
Here's my take on where the image is:

We do not See things in the external World, but rather we Detect things by using internal Conscious processes that we are born with. We all have a personal Conscious Light Screen (CLS) that we use to detect what is happening in the external World. All the Conscious Light of your Visual Experience is painted onto that Screen. If we try to describe where this CLS is located it seems to be embedded in the front of our faces in some way. The CLS is vaguely horizontally rectangular with ambiguous edges that are hard to locate exactly. The screen seems to just fade into nonexistence at the borders. But wherever you look, that screen is there showing you with Conscious Light what is in the scene you are looking at.

To understand this better close your eyes and observe what you See. At first there may be various After Images that represent remnants of what you were looking at, but eventually these fade away. What is left is not totally black. Note that you might have to put your hand over your eyes if you are in a bright place in order to cut off external Light from leaking through your eyelids. Most people will notice a background that has a vague grainy noise almost like the video snow noise that used to appear on old analog TVs. However, this Noise is less distinct and appears to be changing much more slowly than the TV Noise. Let's call this Visual Experience the Conscious Light Noise (CLN). Note that this Noise is referred to as the Visual Dark Noise when Retinal and Cortical Activity is measured using instrumentation. It is due to random Retinal and Cortical firings. CLN really is the background noise in your Visual detection system. Most people easily perceive that this CLN, and possible After Images, are close to the front of their faces. If you move your head around you will See the CLN, and After Images, move around with your head to keep them in front of your face. If you move your eyes up, down, left, or right, the CLN and After Images will seem to be displaced a little in those directions but will still basically be located in front of your face. It is interesting to note that After Images will always look close even if the scene element that caused the After Image is far away. Now you know where your CLS is located. Of course this is probably only an apparent Location because the CLS is a Conscious Mind phenomenon and is not constructed from any Physical Material that can be Located anywhere. However, it sure seems to be Embedded in the front of our faces.

When you open your eyes the scene that you are looking at is painted onto your CLS and it is harder to perceive that the Conscious Light making up the image is still close to your face. Your Visual system tries to give you the illusion that there are things that are far away and things that are close. If you look through only one eye the depth illusion is less pronounced. But the Conscious Light that the scene is painted with is actually still located close to your face and is at the same distance as the CLN. The illusion of distance is absolutely necessary for moving around in the World.

It should be mentioned that the things and scenes you See while Dreaming are painted onto your CLS. If you try to imagine some object, you will see a grainy, hazy, version of that object painted onto your CLS. If you rub your eyes, the Lights that you might See are painted onto your CLS.

The CLS is a general purpose Visual Display Device for all Conscious beings, whether Human or Animal. The Light that is painted onto your CLS is your Light. We walk around all day long looking at our CLSs which are embedded in the front of our faces. We cannot See the CLSs of other people but if we could it would be as if everyone was wearing Virtual Reality goggles. But instead of goggles it would be Conscious Light Screens. We think we are Seeing the external World directly but we (our Conscious Minds) are always just looking (in some Conscious way) at our own CLSs.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Dimebag »

SteveKlinko wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:03 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:39 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:35 pm
Then you either didn't understand or you're simply ignoring something I've explained multiple times already:

Not just for brains/consciousness, but in general, for everything, PROPERTIES ARE DIFFERENT FROM DIFFERENT SPATIOTEMPORAL REFERENCE POINTS. Hopefully you'll notice that this time. Don't ignore it. If you don't get it, ask for clarification about it.

So this means that a third-person spatiotemporal reference point is NOT going to have the same properties as a first-person spatiotemporal reference point of the same thing.
So how is my mental image "physical"? right now I see a computer screen in front of me with typing on it. Where is that computer screen right now? Where is the computer screen 2 seconds later when I think about it after seeing it? These are real problems with the physicalist view of mind.
Here's my take on where the image is:

We do not See things in the external World, but rather we Detect things by using internal Conscious processes that we are born with. We all have a personal Conscious Light Screen (CLS) that we use to detect what is happening in the external World. All the Conscious Light of your Visual Experience is painted onto that Screen. If we try to describe where this CLS is located it seems to be embedded in the front of our faces in some way. The CLS is vaguely horizontally rectangular with ambiguous edges that are hard to locate exactly. The screen seems to just fade into nonexistence at the borders. But wherever you look, that screen is there showing you with Conscious Light what is in the scene you are looking at.

To understand this better close your eyes and observe what you See. At first there may be various After Images that represent remnants of what you were looking at, but eventually these fade away. What is left is not totally black. Note that you might have to put your hand over your eyes if you are in a bright place in order to cut off external Light from leaking through your eyelids. Most people will notice a background that has a vague grainy noise almost like the video snow noise that used to appear on old analog TVs. However, this Noise is less distinct and appears to be changing much more slowly than the TV Noise. Let's call this Visual Experience the Conscious Light Noise (CLN). Note that this Noise is referred to as the Visual Dark Noise when Retinal and Cortical Activity is measured using instrumentation. It is due to random Retinal and Cortical firings. CLN really is the background noise in your Visual detection system. Most people easily perceive that this CLN, and possible After Images, are close to the front of their faces. If you move your head around you will See the CLN, and After Images, move around with your head to keep them in front of your face. If you move your eyes up, down, left, or right, the CLN and After Images will seem to be displaced a little in those directions but will still basically be located in front of your face. It is interesting to note that After Images will always look close even if the scene element that caused the After Image is far away. Now you know where your CLS is located. Of course this is probably only an apparent Location because the CLS is a Conscious Mind phenomenon and is not constructed from any Physical Material that can be Located anywhere. However, it sure seems to be Embedded in the front of our faces.

When you open your eyes the scene that you are looking at is painted onto your CLS and it is harder to perceive that the Conscious Light making up the image is still close to your face. Your Visual system tries to give you the illusion that there are things that are far away and things that are close. If you look through only one eye the depth illusion is less pronounced. But the Conscious Light that the scene is painted with is actually still located close to your face and is at the same distance as the CLN. The illusion of distance is absolutely necessary for moving around in the World.

It should be mentioned that the things and scenes you See while Dreaming are painted onto your CLS. If you try to imagine some object, you will see a grainy, hazy, version of that object painted onto your CLS. If you rub your eyes, the Lights that you might See are painted onto your CLS.

The CLS is a general purpose Visual Display Device for all Conscious beings, whether Human or Animal. The Light that is painted onto your CLS is your Light. We walk around all day long looking at our CLSs which are embedded in the front of our faces. We cannot See the CLSs of other people but if we could it would be as if everyone was wearing Virtual Reality goggles. But instead of goggles it would be Conscious Light Screens. We think we are Seeing the external World directly but we (our Conscious Minds) are always just looking (in some Conscious way) at our own CLSs.
What happens to the CLS in deep sleep? It seems like it’s just gone, because all conscious faculties are gone. Does the CLS rely on the memory processes of the brain to become realised? Or does it have its own form of memory? Does it detach from the brain during deep sleep, or is it just inactive? Surely if it was still there, independent of what the brain was doing, and WE ARE that CLS, then it would be able to be observed at all times, even during deep sleep?
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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SteveKlinko wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:03 pm We do not See things in the external World,
You believe this because?
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:03 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:03 pm We do not See things in the external World,
You believe this because?
So you must think we do See things directly as they are in the external World? You must be a Naïve realist. Have you ever read about how the Retina Works and how the Visual Cortex works? When you read up on these things you will understand why I Know (not Believe) that we do not See things as they are in the external World. We See (or Experience) the Qualia (if you like that word) that is generated by the Brain/Mind and which is Correlated with what is in the External World. What we actually See is a Surrogate for what is in the External World.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Dimebag wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:09 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:03 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:39 pm

So how is my mental image "physical"? right now I see a computer screen in front of me with typing on it. Where is that computer screen right now? Where is the computer screen 2 seconds later when I think about it after seeing it? These are real problems with the physicalist view of mind.
Here's my take on where the image is:

We do not See things in the external World, but rather we Detect things by using internal Conscious processes that we are born with. We all have a personal Conscious Light Screen (CLS) that we use to detect what is happening in the external World. All the Conscious Light of your Visual Experience is painted onto that Screen. If we try to describe where this CLS is located it seems to be embedded in the front of our faces in some way. The CLS is vaguely horizontally rectangular with ambiguous edges that are hard to locate exactly. The screen seems to just fade into nonexistence at the borders. But wherever you look, that screen is there showing you with Conscious Light what is in the scene you are looking at.

To understand this better close your eyes and observe what you See. At first there may be various After Images that represent remnants of what you were looking at, but eventually these fade away. What is left is not totally black. Note that you might have to put your hand over your eyes if you are in a bright place in order to cut off external Light from leaking through your eyelids. Most people will notice a background that has a vague grainy noise almost like the video snow noise that used to appear on old analog TVs. However, this Noise is less distinct and appears to be changing much more slowly than the TV Noise. Let's call this Visual Experience the Conscious Light Noise (CLN). Note that this Noise is referred to as the Visual Dark Noise when Retinal and Cortical Activity is measured using instrumentation. It is due to random Retinal and Cortical firings. CLN really is the background noise in your Visual detection system. Most people easily perceive that this CLN, and possible After Images, are close to the front of their faces. If you move your head around you will See the CLN, and After Images, move around with your head to keep them in front of your face. If you move your eyes up, down, left, or right, the CLN and After Images will seem to be displaced a little in those directions but will still basically be located in front of your face. It is interesting to note that After Images will always look close even if the scene element that caused the After Image is far away. Now you know where your CLS is located. Of course this is probably only an apparent Location because the CLS is a Conscious Mind phenomenon and is not constructed from any Physical Material that can be Located anywhere. However, it sure seems to be Embedded in the front of our faces.

When you open your eyes the scene that you are looking at is painted onto your CLS and it is harder to perceive that the Conscious Light making up the image is still close to your face. Your Visual system tries to give you the illusion that there are things that are far away and things that are close. If you look through only one eye the depth illusion is less pronounced. But the Conscious Light that the scene is painted with is actually still located close to your face and is at the same distance as the CLN. The illusion of distance is absolutely necessary for moving around in the World.

It should be mentioned that the things and scenes you See while Dreaming are painted onto your CLS. If you try to imagine some object, you will see a grainy, hazy, version of that object painted onto your CLS. If you rub your eyes, the Lights that you might See are painted onto your CLS.

The CLS is a general purpose Visual Display Device for all Conscious beings, whether Human or Animal. The Light that is painted onto your CLS is your Light. We walk around all day long looking at our CLSs which are embedded in the front of our faces. We cannot See the CLSs of other people but if we could it would be as if everyone was wearing Virtual Reality goggles. But instead of goggles it would be Conscious Light Screens. We think we are Seeing the external World directly but we (our Conscious Minds) are always just looking (in some Conscious way) at our own CLSs.
What happens to the CLS in deep sleep? It seems like it’s just gone, because all conscious faculties are gone. Does the CLS rely on the memory processes of the brain to become realised? Or does it have its own form of memory? Does it detach from the brain during deep sleep, or is it just inactive? Surely if it was still there, independent of what the brain was doing, and WE ARE that CLS, then it would be able to be observed at all times, even during deep sleep?
Your Memory (based in the Physical Brain) of it may not have been formed, but nobody can say what the Conscious Mind was doing. You know Sleep Researchers think that we all have vivid dreams (Conscious Dream Experiences) every night, but we usually don't remember very much of it. The Conscious Dream Experiences seem to be happening without much Neural Activity that would implement the Memory of them.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:53 pm So you must think we do See things directly as they are in the external World? You must be a Naïve realist. Have you ever read about how the Retina Works and how the Visual Cortex works?
If we can't observe things as they are in the real world, then how in the world would we be able to observe a retina or visual cortex in order to make claims about how they work?
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:02 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:53 pm So you must think we do See things directly as they are in the external World? You must be a Naïve realist. Have you ever read about how the Retina Works and how the Visual Cortex works?
If we can't observe things as they are in the real world, then how in the world would we be able to observe a retina or visual cortex in order to make claims about how they work?
That is not to say that when you look at a Square your Conscious Mind might show you a Circle.(Except maybe in a Psychotic Mind) The Surrogate is constructed in order to try to let you know as good as possible what is happening in the External World. I emphasize, in my studies, the Surrogate nature of Color in Visual Perception. The only thing I Claim is that the Colors, and Visual Light Experience in general, have nothing to do with the External Scene. The Light you See is generated internally by your Brain/Mind mechanism which is Correlated with the External Scene. You have never actually Seen any External thing itself, but rather you have only ever seen a Surrogate Visual construction in you Conscious Mind. We all confuse this internal Experience with the External thing we are looking at because it is the only thing we have ever known about the External World. So even though the Internal Experience is not what the External thing looks like it is good enough to let us move around in the Physical World and discover things about the Physical World.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:19 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:02 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:53 pm So you must think we do See things directly as they are in the external World? You must be a Naïve realist. Have you ever read about how the Retina Works and how the Visual Cortex works?
If we can't observe things as they are in the real world, then how in the world would we be able to observe a retina or visual cortex in order to make claims about how they work?
That is not to say that when you look at a Square your Conscious Mind might show you a Circle.(Except maybe in a Psychotic Mind) The Surrogate is constructed in order to try to let you know as good as possible what is happening in the External World. I emphasize, in my studies, the Surrogate nature of Color in Visual Perception. The only thing I Claim is that the Colors, and Visual Light Experience in general, have nothing to do with the External Scene. The Light you See is generated internally by your Brain/Mind mechanism which is Correlated with the External Scene. You have never actually Seen any External thing itself, but rather you have only ever seen a Surrogate Visual construction in you Conscious Mind. We all confuse this internal Experience with the External thing we are looking at because it is the only thing we have ever known about the External World. So even though the Internal Experience is not what the External thing looks like it is good enough to let us move around in the Physical World and discover things about the Physical World.
You're completely ignoring my question.

If we can't observe what retinas, say, are really like, then how can we possibly make claims about retinas, how they work, etc., and reach conclusions based on the same? That's not a rhetorical question. Think about this for a minute. How would we proceed here?
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by SteveKlinko »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:25 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:19 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:02 pm

If we can't observe things as they are in the real world, then how in the world would we be able to observe a retina or visual cortex in order to make claims about how they work?
That is not to say that when you look at a Square your Conscious Mind might show you a Circle.(Except maybe in a Psychotic Mind) The Surrogate is constructed in order to try to let you know as good as possible what is happening in the External World. I emphasize, in my studies, the Surrogate nature of Color in Visual Perception. The only thing I Claim is that the Colors, and Visual Light Experience in general, have nothing to do with the External Scene. The Light you See is generated internally by your Brain/Mind mechanism which is Correlated with the External Scene. You have never actually Seen any External thing itself, but rather you have only ever seen a Surrogate Visual construction in you Conscious Mind. We all confuse this internal Experience with the External thing we are looking at because it is the only thing we have ever known about the External World. So even though the Internal Experience is not what the External thing looks like it is good enough to let us move around in the Physical World and discover things about the Physical World.
You're completely ignoring my question.

If we can't observe what retinas, say, are really like, then how can we possibly make claims about retinas, how they work, etc., and reach conclusions based on the same? That's not a rhetorical question. Think about this for a minute. How would we proceed here?
You're ignoring my answer. I will interpret for you. Although we will never know what anything is actually like, but we can learn enough about things to deal with them Scientifically, or just in everyday life.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Terrapin Station »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:31 pm You're ignoring my answer. I will interpret for you. Although we will never know what anything is actually like, but we can learn enough about things
How? You're positing that we can't actually observe externals. So how do you learn "enough about them"? How does the process start? Describe how it supposedly works in some detail under the premise that we can't actually observe what externals are like.

This is why you're ignoring the question.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Skepdick »

SteveKlinko wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:37 pm It's because we do in fact know what our own Consciousness is.
Ok, great! If you know what consciousness is, then what is this "hard problem" you keep talking about?
SteveKlinko wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:37 pm It Exists in a place in our Conscious Minds. The problem is that we cannot translate our Knowingness of our own Conscious Experiences into any known Scientific Phenomenon.
If you know what consciousness is then then the "known scientific phenomenon" IS consciousness itself.
SteveKlinko wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:37 pm The fact that nobody, all through the history of Human Thought, has been able to describe Conscious Experience in terms of any Physical Phenomena of the known Physical World should start to make people think that just maybe Conscious Experience really really is some new Phenomenon that is not in any Category of Known Scientific Phenomena. The Mindless obsession with trying to push things like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, or the Salty Taste into the Neurons is getting played out and a waste of Research Time.
Wowees. Your confusion runs deep. You are using the language of "phenomena", ergo it's natural that one assumes you are making your argument from the view-point of a phenomenologist. From such a perspective ALL PHENOMENA are objects of experience.

Since science is just empiricism/experience, then ALL PHENOMENA are scientific phenomena. Non-physical phenomena are still empirical phenomena.

In the very first sentence of this post you said yourself "We do, in fact know what our Consciousness is". So you are admitting empirical knowledge of the phenomenon you call Consciousness.

How can you then also go and say that it's "some new phenomenon".

You don't have a problem of consciousness. You have problem of confusion.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by SteveKlinko »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:53 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:31 pm You're ignoring my answer. I will interpret for you. Although we will never know what anything is actually like, but we can learn enough about things
How? You're positing that we can't actually observe externals. So how do you learn "enough about them"? How does the process start? Describe how it supposedly works in some detail under the premise that we can't actually observe what externals are like.

This is why you're ignoring the question.
The Conscious Visual Experience that is embedded in the front of your face is the thing you look at to get information about the External World. The External World actually doesn't Look like anything. What does it really mean to See something? Your conception of Seeing is completely formed by how your Visual System operates and not by any kind of real Seeing of External things. You never actually See the External World but rather you are always just seeing this screen. The screen portrays the External World for you in order to enable you to move around in that World. It is a pretty good portrayal for that purpose.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by SteveKlinko »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:34 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:37 pm It's because we do in fact know what our own Consciousness is.
Ok, great! If you know what consciousness is, then what is this "hard problem" you keep talking about?
SteveKlinko wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:37 pm It Exists in a place in our Conscious Minds. The problem is that we cannot translate our Knowingness of our own Conscious Experiences into any known Scientific Phenomenon.
If you know what consciousness is then then the "known scientific phenomenon" IS consciousness itself.
SteveKlinko wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:37 pm The fact that nobody, all through the history of Human Thought, has been able to describe Conscious Experience in terms of any Physical Phenomena of the known Physical World should start to make people think that just maybe Conscious Experience really really is some new Phenomenon that is not in any Category of Known Scientific Phenomena. The Mindless obsession with trying to push things like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, or the Salty Taste into the Neurons is getting played out and a waste of Research Time.
Wowees. Your confusion runs deep. You are using the language of "phenomena", ergo it's natural that one assumes you are making your argument from the view-point of a phenomenologist. From such a perspective ALL PHENOMENA are objects of experience.

Since science is just empiricism/experience, then ALL PHENOMENA are scientific phenomena. Non-physical phenomena are still empirical phenomena.

In the very first sentence of this post you said yourself "We do, in fact know what our Consciousness is". So you are admitting empirical knowledge of the phenomenon you call Consciousness.

How can you then also go and say that it's "some new phenomenon".

You don't have a problem of consciousness. You have problem of confusion.
This one of the worst Chop Jobs on a simple line of reasoning that you have done so far. Please stop taking each sentence out of context. The sentences express a Line Thought that you have obliterated.
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