Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by SteveKlinko »

Creativity seems like an almost impossible topic of Consciousness to deal with. But I believe that given some Logical Thinking we will be able to explore Creativity. With the Perspective of the Inter Mind Model (IMM), we can ask the question: Is Creativity a process in the Conscious Mind (CM) or is it simply Neural Activity of the right kind in the Physical Mind (PM)?

Music can be very Creative, but Music can also not be very Creative. Listening to Random Noise or Random Tones can be interesting for a short period time. However, Random Noise and Tones are not very Creative and are not really even Music. I think that Enjoyment is very important when it comes to Artistic Creations. Much Music is written, but the Music that is truly Creative and Original has a Special Essence. People Enjoy it. I think it is clear that the appreciation of that Special Essence of the Music needs to take place in a CM. Scientists can study and measure all the Neural Activity related to this, and still know nothing about the Enjoyment of the Conscious Experience of the Music. The IMM Logically compels us to understand that Music is for the CM and not for the PM.

Claims about Computers creatively writing Music are misleading. Let's explore the Creative Process for Human Music and for Computer Music. The Human composer will get Inspired by a particular line of Musical Notes while Hearing them in the CM. The Human composer might play these Notes on a Piano, Guitar, or other instrument to get a more robust Auditory Experience than what is in the Imagination of the CM. The Human composer will develop a Desire to write the Music. The Human composer is constantly Hearing the Notes at the CM level in order to write the Music. This is because the Human composer instinctively knows the Music is being composed for the Enjoyment of a CM.

Computer Music is not produced this way. Computer Music is generated by Algorithms, Rules, and Random Note generators. The Computer is not Hearing, as a Conscious Experience, any of the Music that is being generated because a Computer has no Connection to a CM. The Computer program is trying to generate Music for the Enjoyment of a CM without being able to Experience it as a CM. It cannot Hear what it is Generating. The Computer cannot Enjoy the Music and it can never Listen to the Music like a CM would be able to do. The Computer does not Desire to write Music and it does not even know that it generated Music. It's all Algorithmic and Mechanistic. It is obvious that a Computer is unable to write Music for a CM, and there is no way to Program that ability into the Computer with Software. It can only be concluded that a Computer cannot Creatively Write Music, but rather it Generates or Calculates the Music. When it is realized that a Computer is merely Calculating Music, it becomes completely understandable that there is no Creativity involved.
Dimebag
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Dimebag »

I think creativity is not conscious, but rather the unconscious subsystems of our brain discovering hidden connections, combinations, etc which are not explicitly known but which are obvious gaps which it fills in. They are based on predictions of prior knowledge.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Terrapin Station »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:56 pm Is Creativity a process in the Conscious Mind (CM) or is it simply Neural Activity of the right kind in the Physical Mind (PM)?
Consciousness is physical. So there's no difference.

Can computers be "creative"? That's hard to answer because "creative" is a fairly nebulous term, where some definitions will clearly amount to a "no" answer, because they require mental phenomena, and I'd say that we don't yet have a good reason to believe that computers have mental phenomena, and some definitions clearly amount to a "yes" answer.

I don't think it's an important question, though, really. We can program computers to compose music that some of us find interesting/worthwhile.
tillingborn
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by tillingborn »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:56 pmComputer Music is generated by Algorithms, Rules, and Random Note generators.
That's not too different to how Bach composed.
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:56 pmThe Computer is not Hearing
Nor was Beethoven.
Skepdick
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Skepdick »

Do counter-examples count for anything? https://www.aiva.ai/

This Youtube channel contains AI-composed symphonies.

N.B This is not music composed by humans using computers. This is generated by autonomous machine-learning algorithms.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by SteveKlinko »

tillingborn wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:45 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:56 pmComputer Music is generated by Algorithms, Rules, and Random Note generators.
That's not too different to how Bach composed.
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:56 pmThe Computer is not Hearing
Nor was Beethoven.
As I said, the Human Composer will hear the Music in the Conscious Mind as a Conscious Experience. Beethoven could certainly do that, even with failing hearing.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by SteveKlinko »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:00 pm Do counter-examples count for anything? https://www.aiva.ai/

This Youtube channel contains AI-composed symphonies.

N.B This is not music composed by humans using computers. This is generated by autonomous machine-learning algorithms.
The Computer could not Experience the Music and did not even Know that it generated the Music. It was all just Algorithmic Simulation of already existing styles and theories of Music.
Skepdick
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Skepdick »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:40 pm The Computer could not Experience the Music and did not even Know that it generated the Music. It was all just Algorithmic Simulation of already existing styles and theories of Music.
So what? The AI was inspired by prior work. Exactly like every human artist.

If we performed a double-blind experiment would you be able tell which is the AI-generated music?
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by SteveKlinko »

Dimebag wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:20 am I think creativity is not conscious, but rather the unconscious subsystems of our brain discovering hidden connections, combinations, etc which are not explicitly known but which are obvious gaps which it fills in. They are based on predictions of prior knowledge.
This is a pure Speculation. But that's ok, it's what I do and what we all must do with regard to understanding Conscious Experience.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by SteveKlinko »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:41 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:40 pm The Computer could not Experience the Music and did not even Know that it generated the Music. It was all just Algorithmic Simulation of already existing styles and theories of Music.
So what? The AI was inspired by prior work. Exactly like every human artist.

If we performed a double-blind experiment would you be able tell which is the AI-generated music?
Haahhhhh! The AI was inspired. Good one.
Skepdick
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Skepdick »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:43 pm Haahhhhh! The AI was inspired. Good one.
Yes. It's calleed Machine Learning. Key word. Learning.

The algorithm couldn't generate music.
Then it listened to some music.
Then it could generate music.

Notice how you ignored the science and went for the special pleading, how you can be "inspired" but computers can't.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by SteveKlinko »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:45 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:43 pm Haahhhhh! The AI was inspired. Good one.
Yes. It's calleed Machine Learning. Key word. Learning.

The algorithm couldn't generate music.
Then it listened to some music.
Then it could generate music.

Notice how you ignored the science and went for the special pleading, how you can be "inspired" but computers can't.
Musical Creativity can not be implemented by configuring a Neural Net. The Neural Net will be able to configure for Patterns in Musical input but will never be Creative, thereby producing anything that has new Patterns that is Enjoyable to the Human Music Experience.
Skepdick
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Skepdick »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:30 pm Musical Creativity can not be implemented by configuring a Neural Net. The Neural Net will be able to configure for Patterns in Musical input but will never be Creative, thereby producing anything that has new Patterns that is Enjoyable to the Human Music Experience.
OK, but is that really true, or do you just want it to be true?

Why are computers now playing more beautiful, more creative and more enjoyable (to the observers) Chess than any other Grandmastrer in human history?
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Sculptor
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Sculptor »

Computers can only follow human designed algorithms. They cannot create; only obey.
To the extent that all compositions are formulaic a computer can run a program with some (once again) human defined random parameters.
Any fool can find examples of computer generated music on the internnet, but the same fool cannot understand the most basic truth that these examples are simply evidence that computers are incapable of creating musical compositions.
There is not the slightest hint of a computer achieving anything close to feeling music and deriving pleasure from it. Without that, music is beyond computer understanding.
You could I suppose try to write a response to fool a Turing Test, but this again will be nothing more than a computer obeying a human designed algorithm.
Skepdick
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:35 pm Computers can only follow human designed algorithms. They cannot create; only obey.
Man, this understanding is stuck in the 1940s.

We have self-modifying code now. It behaves dynamically in a ways that programmer generally anticipates, but cannot predict precisely.

We have non-deterministic algorithms which have bounds of behaviour, like humans have bounds imposed by physics.
Sculptor wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:35 pm To the extent that all compositions are formulaic a computer can run a program with some (once again) human defined random parameters.
Human defined random parameters? That's an oxymoron.

Humans cannot define true randomness.
Sculptor wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:35 pm Any fool can find examples of computer generated music on the internnet, but the same fool cannot understand the most basic truth that these examples are simply evidence that computers are incapable of creating musical compositions.
Only a fool would suggest that there's some important difference.
Sculptor wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:35 pm There is not the slightest hint of a computer achieving anything close to feeling music and deriving pleasure from it. Without that, music is beyond computer understanding.
As if those things are necessary for producing music?
Sculptor wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:35 pm You could I suppose try to write a response to fool a Turing Test, but this again will be nothing more than a computer obeying a human designed algorithm.
Your understanding of determinism and non-determinism is still stuck in the toilet of Philosophy.

You still treat those as ontological, not epistemic qualities.
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