Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Terrapin Station »

SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:18 pm
So if all you are saying is that reality could be a Simulation then ok.
And you wonder why I keep stressing that you do not at all understand my comments.

No, I'm not saying anything at all about simulations.
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Sculptor
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Terrapin Station wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:21 am
Sculptor wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:19 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:37 pm

If we can only experience internal phenomena, then the experience of kicking something, and even any notion that one has a leg to kick anything with, is simply internal phenomena and one has no way to even begin to tell that it's not just a fantasy.
What else you got?
A request for how you personally get around that problem.
I don't have a problem with that, you do.
So describe how you apprehend the external world please.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Sculptor wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:21 pm I don't have a problem with that, you do.
It's not whether you think about it as being a problem. It's that it's a logical problem, whether you'd acknowledge that or not.
So describe how you apprehend the external world please.
Via my senses. That's what they do; it's what perception does.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Terrapin Station wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:23 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:21 pm I don't have a problem with that, you do.
It's not whether you think about it as being a problem. It's that it's a logical problem, whether you'd acknowledge that or not.
So describe how you apprehend the external world please.
Via my senses. That's what they do; it's what perception does.
That is exactly what I am saying.
I just have a deeper understanding of the process which, for some reason, you are resisting to acknowledge.
You know the necessary gap between the perceived world and the real world, but you shy away from admitting it.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Sculptor wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:35 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:23 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:21 pm I don't have a problem with that, you do.
It's not whether you think about it as being a problem. It's that it's a logical problem, whether you'd acknowledge that or not.
So describe how you apprehend the external world please.
Via my senses. That's what they do; it's what perception does.
That is exactly what I am saying.
I just have a deeper understanding of the process which, for some reason, you are resisting to acknowledge.
You know the necessary gap between the perceived world and the real world, but you shy away from admitting it.
First off, the "gap" is always predicated on claims about how perception works, but we can't get to claims about how perception works, where the claims have anything to do with actual embodiment in an actual external world, etc., if we can't (accurately) observe the external world.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Terrapin Station wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:49 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:35 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:23 pm

It's not whether you think about it as being a problem. It's that it's a logical problem, whether you'd acknowledge that or not.



Via my senses. That's what they do; it's what perception does.
That is exactly what I am saying.
I just have a deeper understanding of the process which, for some reason, you are resisting to acknowledge.
You know the necessary gap between the perceived world and the real world, but you shy away from admitting it.
First off, the "gap" is always predicated on claims about how perception works, but we can't get to claims about how perception works, where the claims have anything to do with actual embodiment in an actual external world, etc., if we can't (accurately) observe the external world.
False.
All sensation is mapped with simple physiology, demanding not only a interpretive gap but also a temporal one between the moment of actiality and perception.
There is no alternative, unless you are willing to share something I do nto know.
You seem to be ducking out here.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:14 pm Realism is called Naïve for a reason.
Yes, of course. It's useful to those who buy into sophistry (from which we get, "sophisticated,"), who call anyone who has not swallowed their sophistry, naïve.

The problem with your view is that no matter how many time you run into the wall, you will never be certain it will be there, "next time." It's what's wrong with the whole notion of, "induction."

When a chemist discovers the nature of sulfur or iodine, it is not based on how often those elements have the properties they have, as if sometime they might have different ones. Sulfur is always sulfur and can never be anything else, and iodine is always iodine, and can never be anything else, not statistically, but absolutely because they are identified by the properties they have, and anything that does not have those properties is not those substances, period.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Sculptor wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:49 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:49 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:35 pm
That is exactly what I am saying.
I just have a deeper understanding of the process which, for some reason, you are resisting to acknowledge.
You know the necessary gap between the perceived world and the real world, but you shy away from admitting it.
First off, the "gap" is always predicated on claims about how perception works, but we can't get to claims about how perception works, where the claims have anything to do with actual embodiment in an actual external world, etc., if we can't (accurately) observe the external world.
False.
All sensation is mapped with simple physiology, demanding not only a interpretive gap but also a temporal one between the moment of actiality and perception.
There is no alternative, unless you are willing to share something I do nto know.
You seem to be ducking out here.
??? Your comment doesn't seem to have anything to do with mine.

Which claim in my comment are you saying is false, exactly?
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Sculptor »

Terrapin Station wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:56 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:49 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:49 pm
First off, the "gap" is always predicated on claims about how perception works, but we can't get to claims about how perception works, where the claims have anything to do with actual embodiment in an actual external world, etc., if we can't (accurately) observe the external world.
False.
All sensation is mapped with simple physiology, demanding not only a interpretive gap but also a temporal one between the moment of actuality and perception.
There is no alternative, unless you are willing to share something I do nto know.
You seem to be ducking out here.
??? Your comment doesn't seem to have anything to do with mine.

Which claim in my comment are you saying is false, exactly?
, the "gap" is always predicated on claims about how perception works, but we can't get to claims about how perception works, where the claims have anything to do with actual embodiment in an actual external world, etc.

We can get to claims about how perception works.
In terms of embodiments, as I suggest we have plenty of knoweldge about the mechanisms of perception.
You seem to be resistent with bringing human knowedge to bear on the subject.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Terrapin Station »

Sculptor wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 6:57 pm We can get to claims about how perception works.
How, if we can't observe anything other than mental phenomena?
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Terrapin Station wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:29 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 6:57 pm We can get to claims about how perception works.
How, if we can't observe anything other than mental phenomena?
Take me through your understanding of HOW you perceive things.
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Sculptor wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:55 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:29 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 6:57 pm We can get to claims about how perception works.
How, if we can't observe anything other than mental phenomena?
Take me through your understanding of HOW you perceive things.
Nothing novel. If we're talking about vision, for example, reflected light, for example, hits your eyes, your optic nerve sends information/signals to your brain. At least a subset of the subsequent brain states are conscious perceptual awareness of the external phenomena in question.

Now that I answered that, can you say how we get to claims about how perception works IF we're saying that we can't observe externals?
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Terrapin Station wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:29 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:55 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:29 pm
How, if we can't observe anything other than mental phenomena?
Take me through your understanding of HOW you perceive things.
Nothing novel. If we're talking about vision, for example, reflected light, for example, hits your eyes, your optic nerve sends information/signals to your brain. At least a subset of the subsequent brain states are conscious perceptual awareness of the external phenomena in question.
Phenomena are not outside. The world is as it is. We make the phenomena.
And you think that you "SEE" what is there? Simple as that. No, what happens is that your two eyes focus a 2D image onto the back of your eyes. Your lens can change the focus to concentrate on different aspects of the "real world". These constantly changing 2D images are someone send serially through the optic nerves where they are continually interpreted and understood as a 3 diminsional world . That is INTERPRETATION. Sometimes we get it wrong. The system is easy enough to fool.
The other thing the brain does is fill in stuff you can't actually see. You interpret 3d objects, you do not see them.
a similar process happens with hearing.
It does not take a moments thought to understand how poor your understanding is.
Take taste for example. What you taste is a representation of chemicals in nature. You do not taste Sodium Chloride, you have a senstation of saltiness. Do I have to spell this out that there is a gap between the sensation of the actuality?
Do I have to run your through the idea of qualia?
What you have described is a child's understanding. You've not taken the trouble to think it through.

Now that I answered that, can you say how we get to claims about how perception works IF we're saying that we can't observe externals?
There are seriously massive naive holes in what you have said. And you end with a strawman.
I did not say we can't observe externals.
I assume if I talk about Kant and the thing-in-itself you are going to object?
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Post by Terrapin Station »

Sculptor wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:18 pm
Phenomena are not outside. The world is as it is. We make the phenomena.
And you think that you "SEE" what is there? Simple as that. No, what happens is that your two eyes focus a 2D image onto the back of your eyes.
Hold on. First, you believe both that (a) there are no external phenomena, and (b) we have eyes?
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Re: Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

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Terrapin Station wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:36 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:18 pm
Phenomena are not outside. The world is as it is. We make the phenomena.
And you think that you "SEE" what is there? Simple as that. No, what happens is that your two eyes focus a 2D image onto the back of your eyes.
Hold on. First, you believe both that (a) there are no external phenomena, and (b) we have eyes?
This is both ridicuous and tedious.
If you can't be bothered to read what I wrote, then I'm not going to take the trouble to write it.
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