Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
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Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
The Evolution of Animal life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing. This applies to simple organisms and to Humans. It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience. Using this perspective we might be able to say that Evolution does not even exist as a Thing in Itself, but rather Evolution is just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness in the Universe.
Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
There is no strong emergence. I discussed this here.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pm The Evolution of Animal life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing. This applies to simple organisms and to Humans. It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience. Using this perspective we might be able to say that Evolution does not even exist as a Thing in Itself, but rather Evolution is just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness in the Universe.
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Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
I tend to agree that there is no Emergence. Even the classic example of Wetness being an emergent property of water molecules is a fraud. What is Wetness? Is there even really a Wetness Property? Can Wetness be measured? Humidity can be measured but it is just the amount of water in the air, it is not really a new Emergent property of Water. You can also measure the moisture content of soil, but this also is not a new Emergent property of water. If Wetness is just a matter of something "feeling Wet" then that is not Scientific at all. That is a pure Conscious Experience and has nothing to do with some kind of Scientific Wetness property. If your hands are Wet the water might feel Cool and Slippery when you rub your fingers together but this is not an emergent property of Water, rather it is just the way our Sensory system works.
Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
Wetness is a property of water that can be observed or not depending on the state of H2O that could be ice, vapor, and liquid. I always think of iron as a good example which helps me to understand other situations as well. Iron is a ferromagnet material which means that all spins of atoms align with each other and make a ferromagnet. The spins of atoms start to move faster if you increase the temperature of iron. The spins move so fast, random, at very high temperature that spins are not align with each other anymore and as a result, the system is not ferromagnet anymore but it is paramagnet, paramagnet is when the magnet is zero. I think matter has many properties which some of them become large enough to be observed like wetness or magnet, depending on the condition of matter.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:08 pmI tend to agree that there is no Emergence. Even the classic example of Wetness being an emergent property of water molecules is a fraud. What is Wetness? Is there even really a Wetness Property? Can Wetness be measured? Humidity can be measured but it is just the amount of water in the air, it is not really a new Emergent property of Water. You can also measure the moisture content of soil, but this also is not a new Emergent property of water. If Wetness is just a matter of something "feeling Wet" then that is not Scientific at all. That is a pure Conscious Experience and has nothing to do with some kind of Scientific Wetness property. If your hands are Wet the water might feel Cool and Slippery when you rub your fingers together but this is not an emergent property of Water, rather it is just the way our Sensory system works.
Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
Most proponents of evolutionary biology will tend to say something like, “evolution is the random genetic mutation passed on through reproductive success of an organism”. This says nothing about consciousness and where it fits within the picture. To say that evolution of animals is driven by, or in other words, caused by, consciousness, is a little too simplistic. But, it no doubt does serve as a link in the causal chain, at the least in higher mammals, if not all life, though that is still speculative. To what point can we ascribe consciousness to life in terms of complexity or lack of, for instance, are bees conscious, or even amoebas?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pm The Evolution of Animal life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing. This applies to simple organisms and to Humans. It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience. Using this perspective we might be able to say that Evolution does not even exist as a Thing in Itself, but rather Evolution is just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness in the Universe.
Some people might say, yes, I think bees have some form of sensory experience, after all, they have eyes to respond to light, and possibly ears, and no doubt a sense of smell and likely taste. To have sensory apparatus would seem to indicate some form of sensory experience. Yet we tend to hold only those animals closer to us on the evolutionary tree as possibly having consciousness.
So, whether consciousness is inextricably tied to life itself, I feel like instinctively there must be some form of at minimum simple experience in nearly all life. But to say that consciousness drives the evolution of all life, seems to me to be jumping the gun. I will agree that most likely it plays a key role.
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Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
Yes, Nothing is Everything. But to make a point, Simplicity is sometimes needed.Dimebag wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:58 amMost proponents of evolutionary biology will tend to say something like, “evolution is the random genetic mutation passed on through reproductive success of an organism”. This says nothing about consciousness and where it fits within the picture. To say that evolution of animals is driven by, or in other words, caused by, consciousness, is a little too simplistic. But, it no doubt does serve as a link in the causal chain, at the least in higher mammals, if not all life, though that is still speculative. To what point can we ascribe consciousness to life in terms of complexity or lack of, for instance, are bees conscious, or even amoebas?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pm The Evolution of Animal life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing. This applies to simple organisms and to Humans. It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience. Using this perspective we might be able to say that Evolution does not even exist as a Thing in Itself, but rather Evolution is just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness in the Universe.
Some people might say, yes, I think bees have some form of sensory experience, after all, they have eyes to respond to light, and possibly ears, and no doubt a sense of smell and likely taste. To have sensory apparatus would seem to indicate some form of sensory experience. Yet we tend to hold only those animals closer to us on the evolutionary tree as possibly having consciousness.
So, whether consciousness is inextricably tied to life itself, I feel like instinctively there must be some form of at minimum simple experience in nearly all life. But to say that consciousness drives the evolution of all life, seems to me to be jumping the gun. I will agree that most likely it plays a key role.
Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
That’s true to an extent, but it doesn’t take into account the complexity of human psychology, such as that exhibited by flagellants, self-mortifiers and other types of masochists physical and mental.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pm The Evolution of Animal life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react.
Can you reconcile these facts with your quoted premise?
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Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
I don't study Degenerate cases. I try to make sense out of the Normal first, and then understand the outliers later. Outliers must be put in the context of the Normal.Walker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:32 pmThat’s true to an extent, but it doesn’t take into account the complexity of human psychology, such as that exhibited by flagellants, self-mortifiers and other types of masochists physical and mental.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pm The Evolution of Animal life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react.
Can you reconcile these facts with your quoted premise?
Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
Are you familiar with the Catholic Church?
Catholics are notorious for self-denial. It varies only in degree.
Unnecessary mask wearing is a milder form of the same principle that empowers self-mortification, resulting in purification.
A milder pain.
What's more normal than a whole lot of folks wearing masks? It's a phenomenon worthy of study, as is realty, at least for non-specialists.
The tat is more significant because of the unavoidable pain necessary to create a skin-in-the-game statement.
Are they degenerates?
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Cutting and Self-Harm: Why Teens Cut in the Digital Age
https://www.psycom.net/cutting-self-harm-teens
You know, I looked at the article.
Cutting is certainly painful.
Some say it's a choice, but who would choose to do that?
It doesn’t mention that these teens are degenerates, though.
I guess that would have made for a too-short article.
Therefore, many organisms that experience pain, seek pain.
Catholics are notorious for self-denial. It varies only in degree.
Unnecessary mask wearing is a milder form of the same principle that empowers self-mortification, resulting in purification.
A milder pain.
What's more normal than a whole lot of folks wearing masks? It's a phenomenon worthy of study, as is realty, at least for non-specialists.
Lots of folks are tatted up these days.I don't study Degenerate cases.
The tat is more significant because of the unavoidable pain necessary to create a skin-in-the-game statement.
Are they degenerates?
*
Cutting and Self-Harm: Why Teens Cut in the Digital Age
https://www.psycom.net/cutting-self-harm-teens
You know, I looked at the article.
Cutting is certainly painful.
Some say it's a choice, but who would choose to do that?
It doesn’t mention that these teens are degenerates, though.
I guess that would have made for a too-short article.
I get it. You can't.Can you reconcile these facts with your quoted premise?
Therefore, many organisms that experience pain, seek pain.
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Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
People that get Tattoos don't like the Pain, but rather they put up with the Pain. It's a badge of courage. I wouldn't say they are Degenerate in the more emotional sense that you seem to be implying. In mathematics, a Degenerate Case is a limiting case of a class of objects which appears to be qualitatively different from the rest of the class. That's all I mean when I say Degenerate.Walker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:36 pm Are you familiar with the Catholic Church?
Catholics are notorious for self-denial. It varies only in degree.
Unnecessary mask wearing is a milder form of the same principle that empowers self-mortification, resulting in purification.
A milder pain.
What's more normal than a whole lot of folks wearing masks? It's a phenomenon worthy of study, as is realty, at least for non-specialists.Lots of folks are tatted up these days.I don't study Degenerate cases.
The tat is more significant because of the unavoidable pain necessary to create a skin-in-the-game statement.
Are they degenerates?
*
Cutting and Self-Harm: Why Teens Cut in the Digital Age
https://www.psycom.net/cutting-self-harm-teens
You know, I looked at the article.
Cutting is certainly painful.
Some say it's a choice, but who would choose to do that?
It doesn’t mention that these teens are degenerates, though.
I guess that would have made for a too-short article.
I get it. You can't.Can you reconcile these facts with your quoted premise?
Therefore, many organisms that experience pain, seek pain.
Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
No pain, no gain.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pmAny organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain.
Big assumption based on what you know of life.People that get Tattoos don't like the Pain
I double checked. This sub-forum is Philosophy of Mind, not Mathematics.
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Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
So what does Degenerate mean in the Philosophy of Mind? You seem to be using the word in a more Sociological sense.Walker wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:09 amNo pain, no gain.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pmAny organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain.Big assumption based on what you know of life.People that get Tattoos don't like the Pain
I double checked. This sub-forum is Philosophy of Mind, not Mathematics.
Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
Doesn’t matter. Since you’re a rational and intelligent person not dominated by ego defense, my point was to challenge your premise with examples and reasoning should want to modify the hypothesis, should you find the pov relevant and significant, which you may not. Use it or toss it as you see fit.
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Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness
I agree, Semantics gets tedious.Walker wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:12 pm Doesn’t matter. Since you’re a rational and intelligent person not dominated by ego defense, my point was to challenge your premise with examples and reasoning should want to modify the hypothesis, should you find the pov relevant and significant, which you may not. Use it or toss it as you see fit.