Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
SteveKlinko
Posts: 800
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by SteveKlinko »

The Evolution of Animal life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing. This applies to simple organisms and to Humans. It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience. Using this perspective we might be able to say that Evolution does not even exist as a Thing in Itself, but rather Evolution is just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness in the Universe.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by bahman »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pm The Evolution of Animal life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing. This applies to simple organisms and to Humans. It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience. Using this perspective we might be able to say that Evolution does not even exist as a Thing in Itself, but rather Evolution is just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness in the Universe.
There is no strong emergence. I discussed this here.
SteveKlinko
Posts: 800
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by SteveKlinko »

bahman wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:54 pm There is no strong emergence. I discussed this here.
I tend to agree that there is no Emergence. Even the classic example of Wetness being an emergent property of water molecules is a fraud. What is Wetness? Is there even really a Wetness Property? Can Wetness be measured? Humidity can be measured but it is just the amount of water in the air, it is not really a new Emergent property of Water. You can also measure the moisture content of soil, but this also is not a new Emergent property of water. If Wetness is just a matter of something "feeling Wet" then that is not Scientific at all. That is a pure Conscious Experience and has nothing to do with some kind of Scientific Wetness property. If your hands are Wet the water might feel Cool and Slippery when you rub your fingers together but this is not an emergent property of Water, rather it is just the way our Sensory system works.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by bahman »

SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:08 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:54 pm There is no strong emergence. I discussed this here.
I tend to agree that there is no Emergence. Even the classic example of Wetness being an emergent property of water molecules is a fraud. What is Wetness? Is there even really a Wetness Property? Can Wetness be measured? Humidity can be measured but it is just the amount of water in the air, it is not really a new Emergent property of Water. You can also measure the moisture content of soil, but this also is not a new Emergent property of water. If Wetness is just a matter of something "feeling Wet" then that is not Scientific at all. That is a pure Conscious Experience and has nothing to do with some kind of Scientific Wetness property. If your hands are Wet the water might feel Cool and Slippery when you rub your fingers together but this is not an emergent property of Water, rather it is just the way our Sensory system works.
Wetness is a property of water that can be observed or not depending on the state of H2O that could be ice, vapor, and liquid. I always think of iron as a good example which helps me to understand other situations as well. Iron is a ferromagnet material which means that all spins of atoms align with each other and make a ferromagnet. The spins of atoms start to move faster if you increase the temperature of iron. The spins move so fast, random, at very high temperature that spins are not align with each other anymore and as a result, the system is not ferromagnet anymore but it is paramagnet, paramagnet is when the magnet is zero. I think matter has many properties which some of them become large enough to be observed like wetness or magnet, depending on the condition of matter.
Dimebag
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:12 am

Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by Dimebag »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pm The Evolution of Animal life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing. This applies to simple organisms and to Humans. It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience. Using this perspective we might be able to say that Evolution does not even exist as a Thing in Itself, but rather Evolution is just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness in the Universe.
Most proponents of evolutionary biology will tend to say something like, “evolution is the random genetic mutation passed on through reproductive success of an organism”. This says nothing about consciousness and where it fits within the picture. To say that evolution of animals is driven by, or in other words, caused by, consciousness, is a little too simplistic. But, it no doubt does serve as a link in the causal chain, at the least in higher mammals, if not all life, though that is still speculative. To what point can we ascribe consciousness to life in terms of complexity or lack of, for instance, are bees conscious, or even amoebas?

Some people might say, yes, I think bees have some form of sensory experience, after all, they have eyes to respond to light, and possibly ears, and no doubt a sense of smell and likely taste. To have sensory apparatus would seem to indicate some form of sensory experience. Yet we tend to hold only those animals closer to us on the evolutionary tree as possibly having consciousness.

So, whether consciousness is inextricably tied to life itself, I feel like instinctively there must be some form of at minimum simple experience in nearly all life. But to say that consciousness drives the evolution of all life, seems to me to be jumping the gun. I will agree that most likely it plays a key role.
SteveKlinko
Posts: 800
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by SteveKlinko »

Dimebag wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:58 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pm The Evolution of Animal life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing. This applies to simple organisms and to Humans. It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience. Using this perspective we might be able to say that Evolution does not even exist as a Thing in Itself, but rather Evolution is just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness in the Universe.
Most proponents of evolutionary biology will tend to say something like, “evolution is the random genetic mutation passed on through reproductive success of an organism”. This says nothing about consciousness and where it fits within the picture. To say that evolution of animals is driven by, or in other words, caused by, consciousness, is a little too simplistic. But, it no doubt does serve as a link in the causal chain, at the least in higher mammals, if not all life, though that is still speculative. To what point can we ascribe consciousness to life in terms of complexity or lack of, for instance, are bees conscious, or even amoebas?

Some people might say, yes, I think bees have some form of sensory experience, after all, they have eyes to respond to light, and possibly ears, and no doubt a sense of smell and likely taste. To have sensory apparatus would seem to indicate some form of sensory experience. Yet we tend to hold only those animals closer to us on the evolutionary tree as possibly having consciousness.

So, whether consciousness is inextricably tied to life itself, I feel like instinctively there must be some form of at minimum simple experience in nearly all life. But to say that consciousness drives the evolution of all life, seems to me to be jumping the gun. I will agree that most likely it plays a key role.
Yes, Nothing is Everything. But to make a point, Simplicity is sometimes needed.
Walker
Posts: 14280
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by Walker »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pm The Evolution of Animal life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react.
That’s true to an extent, but it doesn’t take into account the complexity of human psychology, such as that exhibited by flagellants, self-mortifiers and other types of masochists physical and mental.

Can you reconcile these facts with your quoted premise?
SteveKlinko
Posts: 800
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by SteveKlinko »

Walker wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:32 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pm The Evolution of Animal life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react.
That’s true to an extent, but it doesn’t take into account the complexity of human psychology, such as that exhibited by flagellants, self-mortifiers and other types of masochists physical and mental.

Can you reconcile these facts with your quoted premise?
I don't study Degenerate cases. I try to make sense out of the Normal first, and then understand the outliers later. Outliers must be put in the context of the Normal.
Walker
Posts: 14280
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by Walker »

Are you familiar with the Catholic Church?

Catholics are notorious for self-denial. It varies only in degree.

Unnecessary mask wearing is a milder form of the same principle that empowers self-mortification, resulting in purification.

A milder pain.

What's more normal than a whole lot of folks wearing masks? It's a phenomenon worthy of study, as is realty, at least for non-specialists.
I don't study Degenerate cases.
Lots of folks are tatted up these days.
The tat is more significant because of the unavoidable pain necessary to create a skin-in-the-game statement.
Are they degenerates?

*

Cutting and Self-Harm: Why Teens Cut in the Digital Age
https://www.psycom.net/cutting-self-harm-teens

You know, I looked at the article.
Cutting is certainly painful.
Some say it's a choice, but who would choose to do that?
It doesn’t mention that these teens are degenerates, though.
I guess that would have made for a too-short article.
Can you reconcile these facts with your quoted premise?
I get it. You can't.

Therefore, many organisms that experience pain, seek pain.
SteveKlinko
Posts: 800
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by SteveKlinko »

Walker wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:36 pm Are you familiar with the Catholic Church?

Catholics are notorious for self-denial. It varies only in degree.

Unnecessary mask wearing is a milder form of the same principle that empowers self-mortification, resulting in purification.

A milder pain.

What's more normal than a whole lot of folks wearing masks? It's a phenomenon worthy of study, as is realty, at least for non-specialists.
I don't study Degenerate cases.
Lots of folks are tatted up these days.
The tat is more significant because of the unavoidable pain necessary to create a skin-in-the-game statement.
Are they degenerates?

*

Cutting and Self-Harm: Why Teens Cut in the Digital Age
https://www.psycom.net/cutting-self-harm-teens

You know, I looked at the article.
Cutting is certainly painful.
Some say it's a choice, but who would choose to do that?
It doesn’t mention that these teens are degenerates, though.
I guess that would have made for a too-short article.
Can you reconcile these facts with your quoted premise?
I get it. You can't.

Therefore, many organisms that experience pain, seek pain.
People that get Tattoos don't like the Pain, but rather they put up with the Pain. It's a badge of courage. I wouldn't say they are Degenerate in the more emotional sense that you seem to be implying. In mathematics, a Degenerate Case is a limiting case of a class of objects which appears to be qualitatively different from the rest of the class. That's all I mean when I say Degenerate.
Walker
Posts: 14280
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by Walker »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pmAny organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain.
No pain, no gain.
People that get Tattoos don't like the Pain
Big assumption based on what you know of life.

I double checked. This sub-forum is Philosophy of Mind, not Mathematics.
SteveKlinko
Posts: 800
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by SteveKlinko »

Walker wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:09 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:34 pmAny organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain.
No pain, no gain.
People that get Tattoos don't like the Pain
Big assumption based on what you know of life.

I double checked. This sub-forum is Philosophy of Mind, not Mathematics.
So what does Degenerate mean in the Philosophy of Mind? You seem to be using the word in a more Sociological sense.
Walker
Posts: 14280
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by Walker »

Doesn’t matter. Since you’re a rational and intelligent person not dominated by ego defense, my point was to challenge your premise with examples and reasoning should want to modify the hypothesis, should you find the pov relevant and significant, which you may not. Use it or toss it as you see fit.
SteveKlinko
Posts: 800
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Evolution Is Just an Emergent Property of the Action of Consciousness

Post by SteveKlinko »

Walker wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:12 pm Doesn’t matter. Since you’re a rational and intelligent person not dominated by ego defense, my point was to challenge your premise with examples and reasoning should want to modify the hypothesis, should you find the pov relevant and significant, which you may not. Use it or toss it as you see fit.
I agree, Semantics gets tedious.
Post Reply