How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by bahman »

commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:26 pm I can remember what I wrote in this sentence without rereading the words.

But that only addresses short term memory. It has to make it into long term memory if I am going to be able to recite the sentence next week.

Even if the memory gets stored in long term, without reinforcement I’m likely to lose it anyway.
True.
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Dontaskme
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Dontaskme »

commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:26 pm

Even if the memory gets stored in long term, without reinforcement I’m likely to lose it anyway.
What do you think of the idea that if you could lose your memory, then you never really had it ?
Age
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm It is through references.
Is that the written or spoken sentences that we express only, or does this include the sentences spoken but held within as well?
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm All things that we have experienced in our lives exist in long-term memory.
Do the things that we have experienced yesterday or a minute ago also exist in long-term memory?

Is there such a thing as short-term memory?
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm There is a reference for each thing. We are presented by the reference first always because it is more economical. We can retrieve the information related to the thing by reference if we can remember the thing and if it is needed. We are left with the reference only and cannot remember the thing if we cannot retrieve the information.
If you say so, but so what?

WHY are 'you' telling 'us' this, 'retrieved information'?
Age
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:09 am
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm It is through references. All things that we have experienced in our lives exist in long-term memory. There is a reference for each thing. We are presented by the reference first always because it is more economical. We can retrieve the information related to the thing by reference if we can remember the thing and if it is needed. We are left with the reference only and cannot remember the thing if we cannot retrieve the information.



How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?
We do not know that we know. And we do not know that we do not know. That's how.

Logically, it is known that there is no knower, which is illogical, and is why reality is irrational.
Knowing that there is NO knower is only "known" to 'you', the one called "dontaskme".

Yet, it is 'you', "dontaskme", who also CLAIMS that you do NOT know that you know.

Also, CLAIMING that " 'reality', itself, is irrational ", speaks volumes, and also speaks for itself.

See, some of 'us' do ACTUALLY KNOW who AND what thee Creator, and thee KNOWER, ACTUALLY IS, in fact.
Age
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Age »

How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

In regards to 'what', EXACTLY?

See, there are DIFFERENT actual answers to YOUR CLARIFYING QUESTION, which are dependent upon YOUR actual answer to MY CLARIFYING QUESTION.
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Dontaskme
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Dontaskme »

Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:37 am
Knowing that there is NO knower is only "known" to 'you', the one called "dontaskme".

Yet, it is 'you', "dontaskme", who also CLAIMS that you do NOT know that you know.

Also, CLAIMING that " 'reality', itself, is irrational ", speaks volumes, and also speaks for itself.

See, some of 'us' do ACTUALLY KNOW who AND what thee Creator, and thee KNOWER, ACTUALLY IS, in fact.
Knowing does not seek to know. Knowing makes no claim to know.

How does knowing know? In the same way all things known testify to the unknowable knowing.

It is not a matter of a riddle that has to be solved conceptually. The mind cannot grasp that what knows the mind.

In Longing to know My Own Unknowableness,separation,which created time and space,happened...apparently!
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Dontaskme
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Dontaskme »

Now, the thing about the space and time concept created by the longing to know oneself :arrow: :arrow:


The personal self and time depend on each other for their mutual existence. Or said another way, the personal self created this thing called "time" so it could have a point of reference to make sense of it's existence, and it's other creations. When the personal self is seen to be a fantasy, a mirage, then all the things concerning it are also fantasies, including all of it's creations, including the existence of time.

All created things, will eventually run out of time to exist, just as time itself is also a created thing.

A created thing cannot know it's creator.



.
Age
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:45 am
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:37 am
Knowing that there is NO knower is only "known" to 'you', the one called "dontaskme".

Yet, it is 'you', "dontaskme", who also CLAIMS that you do NOT know that you know.

Also, CLAIMING that " 'reality', itself, is irrational ", speaks volumes, and also speaks for itself.

See, some of 'us' do ACTUALLY KNOW who AND what thee Creator, and thee KNOWER, ACTUALLY IS, in fact.
Knowing does not seek to know. Knowing makes no claim to know.
There was NO CLAIM of this made anyway, which I KNOW of, anyway,
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:45 am How does knowing know?
But 'knowing' itself does NOT know ANY thing. And, I am NOT aware of ANY one saying NOR claiming this.

It is the One who KNOWS, which KNOWS.
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:45 am In the same way all things known testify to the unknowable knowing.

It is not a matter of a riddle that has to be solved conceptually. The mind cannot grasp that what knows the mind.

In Longing to know My Own Unknowableness,separation,which created time and space,happened...apparently!
Age
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:50 am Now, the thing about the space and time concept created by the longing to know oneself :arrow: :arrow:


The personal self and time depend on each other for their mutual existence. Or said another way, the personal self created this thing called "time" so it could have a point of reference to make sense of it's existence, and it's other creations. When the personal self is seen to be a fantasy, a mirage, then all the things concerning it are also fantasies, including all of it's creations, including the existence of time.

All created things, will eventually run out of time to exist, just as time itself is also a created thing.

A created thing cannot know it's creator.




.
The created or personal self, does NOT KNOW. Personal, created selves only THINK, they know.

Life is evolving. So, 'life' could evolve until 'it' becomes aware of Its Self.

Life just needs to keep evolving enough to become a Truly 'intelligent' being, which is learning, understanding, and reasoning enough to work out 'what' and 'who' is Creating ALL-OF-THIS.

In other words, 'Life' just needs to evolve enough to become a Truly Self-conscious, or Truly Self-AWARE, Being. Intelligence, itself, provides this ABILITY.

When this happens, evolution has progressed enough that it is NOT the 'created thing', which KNOWS it's Creator, but thee Creator, Itself, which has become Self-AWARE, in the Truest of senses.
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bahman
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm It is through references.
Is that the written or spoken sentences that we express only, or does this include the sentences spoken but held within as well?
A reference is something that refers to something else, a spoken sentence for example.
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm All things that we have experienced in our lives exist in long-term memory.
Do the things that we have experienced yesterday or a minute ago also exist in long-term memory?
Yes. But harder you try to memorize a thing easier is the retrieval.
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am Is there such a thing as short-term memory?
Yes. It can hold some items for about 30 seconds.
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm There is a reference for each thing. We are presented by the reference first always because it is more economical. We can retrieve the information related to the thing by reference if we can remember the thing and if it is needed. We are left with the reference only and cannot remember the thing if we cannot retrieve the information.
If you say so, but so what?

WHY are 'you' telling 'us' this, 'retrieved information'?
Could you please more be specific?
Age
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:00 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm It is through references.
Is that the written or spoken sentences that we express only, or does this include the sentences spoken but held within as well?
A reference is something that refers to something else, a spoken sentence for example.
ONCE AGAIN, you have completely and utterly MISSED, MISREAD, MISUNDERSTOOD, or MISINTERPRETED, or just plain 'tried to' DEFLECT from, what I actually said and MEANT.
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:00 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm All things that we have experienced in our lives exist in long-term memory.
Do the things that we have experienced yesterday or a minute ago also exist in long-term memory?
Yes. But harder you try to memorize a thing easier is the retrieval.
Do you PURPOSELY mean to NOT UNDERSTAND what I write and say?
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:00 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am Is there such a thing as short-term memory?
Yes. It can hold some items for about 30 seconds.
LOL VERY SPECIFIC.

So, to 'you', something that you experienced say, 31 seconds ago, is in the long-term memory, correct?

If yes, then this explains WHY you responded the way you did to my previous question with a "Yes".
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:00 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm There is a reference for each thing. We are presented by the reference first always because it is more economical. We can retrieve the information related to the thing by reference if we can remember the thing and if it is needed. We are left with the reference only and cannot remember the thing if we cannot retrieve the information.
If you say so, but so what?

WHY are 'you' telling 'us' this, 'retrieved information'?
Could you please more be specific?
You wrote what you did here in the quote, correct?

If yes, then WHY are you telling 'us' what you wrote?
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Dontaskme
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Dontaskme »

Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:32 pm
It is the One who KNOWS, which KNOWS.

Yes, it is indeed the One who KNOWS, which KNOWS.
commonsense
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by commonsense »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:40 am
commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:26 pm

Even if the memory gets stored in long term, without reinforcement I’m likely to lose it anyway.
What do you think of the idea that if you could lose your memory, then you never really had it ?
Serious concept wrapped in what could be considered a witticism!

Certainly you would have no memory of your memory.

Anecdotally, I am amnestic for a couple of weeks surrounding ECT a number of years ago. Immediately upon awakening with amnesia, I was confused and aware of my confusion. Over a short period of time, I was able to make connections between what I found in my environment and items from my less-immediate past. There remained a strange feeling whenever I wanted to think about the missing period of time.

Eventually though, the lapse of memory seems just the same as the normal loss of memory that occur with age.
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Dontaskme
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Dontaskme »

commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:11 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:40 am
commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:26 pm

Even if the memory gets stored in long term, without reinforcement I’m likely to lose it anyway.
What do you think of the idea that if you could lose your memory, then you never really had it ?
Serious concept wrapped in what could be considered a witticism!

Certainly you would have no memory of your memory.

Anecdotally, I am amnestic for a couple of weeks surrounding ECT a number of years ago. Immediately upon awakening with amnesia, I was confused and aware of my confusion. Over a short period of time, I was able to make connections between what I found in my environment and items from my less-immediate past. There remained a strange feeling whenever I wanted to think about the missing period of time.

Eventually though, the lapse of memory seems just the same as the normal loss of memory that occur with age.
Thanks for the reply.

I was thinking more along the lines of there is no actual person, ( I ) there to control the functions of the memory, whether the memory is fading, or lost completely, and then returning.

.
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bahman
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:21 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:00 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
Is that the written or spoken sentences that we express only, or does this include the sentences spoken but held within as well?
A reference is something that refers to something else, a spoken sentence for example.
ONCE AGAIN, you have completely and utterly MISSED, MISREAD, MISUNDERSTOOD, or MISINTERPRETED, or just plain 'tried to' DEFLECT from, what I actually said and MEANT.
I cannot help you if you would not help me. Could you please rephrase the question?
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:00 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
Do the things that we have experienced yesterday or a minute ago also exist in long-term memory?
Yes. But harder you try to memorize a thing easier is the retrieval.
Do you PURPOSELY mean to NOT UNDERSTAND what I write and say?
I answered yes.
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:00 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am Is there such a thing as short-term memory?
Yes. It can hold some items for about 30 seconds.
LOL VERY SPECIFIC.

So, to 'you', something that you experienced say, 31 seconds ago, is in the long-term memory, correct?
yes.
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am If yes, then this explains WHY you responded the way you did to my previous question with a "Yes".
What do you mean?
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:00 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
If you say so, but so what?

WHY are 'you' telling 'us' this, 'retrieved information'?
Could you please more be specific?
You wrote what you did here in the quote, correct?
Which quote?
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am If yes, then WHY are you telling 'us' what you wrote?
What do you mean?
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