How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by bahman »

It is through references. All things that we have experienced in our lives exist in long-term memory. There is a reference for each thing. We are presented by the reference first always because it is more economical. We can retrieve the information related to the thing by reference if we can remember the thing and if it is needed. We are left with the reference only and cannot remember the thing if we cannot retrieve the information.
Skepdick
Posts: 14364
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Skepdick »

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm It is through references. All things that we have experienced in our lives exist in long-term memory. There is a reference for each thing. We are presented by the reference first always because it is more economical. We can retrieve the information related to the thing by reference if we can remember the thing and if it is needed. We are left with the reference only and cannot remember the thing if we cannot retrieve the information.
Nah. Humans have the ability to forget. There's all sorts of issues about memory recall.
Last edited by Skepdick on Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by bahman »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:51 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm It is through references. All things that we have experienced in our lives exist in long-term memory.
Nah. Humans have the ability to forget. There's all sorts of issues about memory recall.
Yes, we can forget the reference too. The rest I already addressed.
Skepdick
Posts: 14364
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Skepdick »

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:53 pm Yes, we can forget the reference too. The rest I already addressed.
It's not a 1:1 relationship between reference and referent.

Your mind is a mesh of inter-related memories.

And so in your simplified model you can't explain whether you forgot X because X is missing or because there's no pathway to X in your mind.

You forgot to buy groceries, but later you remembered that you forgot to buy groceries.
Skepdick
Posts: 14364
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Skepdick »

Perhaps you want to lookup the idea of "garbage collection" in computer science.

It's piece of software which deletes items in memory which have no references/pathways leading to them.

It removes "islands" of memory.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by bahman »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:58 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:53 pm Yes, we can forget the reference too. The rest I already addressed.
It's not a 1:1 relationship between reference and referent.
It is. There is a reference for each thing that we memorize unless we forget one or the connection between the reference and referent is gone.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:58 pm Your mind is a mesh of inter-related memories.
True, so?
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:58 pm And so in your simplified model you can't explain whether you forgot X because X is missing or because there's no pathway to X in your mind.
It could be both.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:58 pm You forgot to buy groceries, but later you remembered that you forgot to buy groceries.
How do you remember that you forget?
Dimebag
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:12 am

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Dimebag »

So what is the reference for a memory? It’s not like we have a memory registry which houses a list of all remembered things.

I know what you mean though. When we know something, we feel like we know the answer, even if it’s not currently accessible.

Here is my best guess.

When a question is given, and we hear it, this sends activation through our associative conceptual networks of our brain, which are also the basis for any answers.

Imagine the question is, “what is the capital of France”, our associative networks activate the concepts France, and the concept Capital city, and finds that there is some kind of existing link there, maybe based on the feedback it receives from this particular signal which initially activated the concepts.

Then, the associative networks work together to interrogate the question further, along with more linked concepts in that network, to return a related concept sharing links to both France and Capital city, which happens to be Paris, and thus this concept sends a signal back to the “knower” or basically the verbal part of our brains which will give the answer.

So, it’s a kind of triangulation in a sense.

Just an idea anyway.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by bahman »

Dimebag wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:42 am So what is the reference for a memory? It’s not like we have a memory registry which houses a list of all remembered things.
It is memory itself. But is faster to search between the related database that hold all refernecs since a reference to a memory needs much less room than the memory itself. Memories and their related references are related though.
Dimebag wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:42 am I know what you mean though. When we know something, we feel like we know the answer, even if it’s not currently accessible.
It is sort of awarness from a subject matter. It is small package of information. We know well what it is poining to though.
Dimebag wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:42 am Here is my best guess.

When a question is given, and we hear it, this sends activation through our associative conceptual networks of our brain, which are also the basis for any answers.

Imagine the question is, “what is the capital of France”, our associative networks activate the concepts France, and the concept of Capital city, and finds that there is some kind of existing link there, maybe based on the feedback it receives from this particular signal which initially activated the concepts.

Then, the associative networks work together to interrogate the question further, along with more linked concepts in that network, to return a related concept sharing links to both France and Capital city, which happens to be Paris, and thus this concept sends a signal back to the “knower” or basically the verbal part of our brains which will give the answer.

So, it’s a kind of triangulation in a sense.

Just an idea anyway.
Suppose that we had a trip last summer and visited several locations. This is a big chunk of memory. Now suppose that on one occasion I ask you whether you remember our trip last summer. This is a very specific question pointing to our trip last summer. You answer yes without recalling all things we have done on the trip. This is a sort of awareness that points to the whole story. I then become more specific and asked the name of the city that we visited first. This a question that activates the network of all references first. Once the reference is found then the network related to name is activated. You could remember or not if the second search is successful or not. Regardless you know that you know even if you cannot recall the name of the city at that moment because the first search among references was successful. That is how we know what we know. The opposite also very simple, how do we know that we don't know? The reference simply does not exist.
Dimebag
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:12 am

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Dimebag »

bahman wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:15 pm
Dimebag wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:42 am So what is the reference for a memory? It’s not like we have a memory registry which houses a list of all remembered things.
It is memory itself. But is faster to search between the related database that hold all refernecs since a reference to a memory needs much less room than the memory itself. Memories and their related references are related though.
Dimebag wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:42 am I know what you mean though. When we know something, we feel like we know the answer, even if it’s not currently accessible.
It is sort of awarness from a subject matter. It is small package of information. We know well what it is poining to though.
Dimebag wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:42 am Here is my best guess.

When a question is given, and we hear it, this sends activation through our associative conceptual networks of our brain, which are also the basis for any answers.

Imagine the question is, “what is the capital of France”, our associative networks activate the concepts France, and the concept of Capital city, and finds that there is some kind of existing link there, maybe based on the feedback it receives from this particular signal which initially activated the concepts.

Then, the associative networks work together to interrogate the question further, along with more linked concepts in that network, to return a related concept sharing links to both France and Capital city, which happens to be Paris, and thus this concept sends a signal back to the “knower” or basically the verbal part of our brains which will give the answer.

So, it’s a kind of triangulation in a sense.

Just an idea anyway.
Suppose that we had a trip last summer and visited several locations. This is a big chunk of memory. Now suppose that on one occasion I ask you whether you remember our trip last summer. This is a very specific question pointing to our trip last summer. You answer yes without recalling all things we have done on the trip. This is a sort of awareness that points to the whole story. I then become more specific and asked the name of the city that we visited first. This a question that activates the network of all references first. Once the reference is found then the network related to name is activated. You could remember or not if the second search is successful or not. Regardless you know that you know even if you cannot recall the name of the city at that moment because the first search among references was successful. That is how we know what we know. The opposite also very simple, how do we know that we don't know? The reference simply does not exist.
Most of the time when we know something, the answer just comes out without effort. When we feel like we should know something but don’t, or maybe did know it but now can’t remember it is a combination of the feeling that we do know it and can’t currently reproduce the answer, which results in a feeling of annoyance.

What is strange is, the conscious effort of trying to “search” for the answer, seems to actually hinder the process. I have noticed that remembering is more of a passive process, conscious intervention seems to interrupt and interfere with the finding. As long as the question is kept in the back of one’s mind so to speak, or just below the level of conscious intention, the answer tends to emerge.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by bahman »

Dimebag wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:45 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:15 pm
Dimebag wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:42 am So what is the reference for a memory? It’s not like we have a memory registry which houses a list of all remembered things.
It is memory itself. But is faster to search between the related database that hold all refernecs since a reference to a memory needs much less room than the memory itself. Memories and their related references are related though.
Dimebag wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:42 am I know what you mean though. When we know something, we feel like we know the answer, even if it’s not currently accessible.
It is sort of awarness from a subject matter. It is small package of information. We know well what it is poining to though.
Dimebag wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:42 am Here is my best guess.

When a question is given, and we hear it, this sends activation through our associative conceptual networks of our brain, which are also the basis for any answers.

Imagine the question is, “what is the capital of France”, our associative networks activate the concepts France, and the concept of Capital city, and finds that there is some kind of existing link there, maybe based on the feedback it receives from this particular signal which initially activated the concepts.

Then, the associative networks work together to interrogate the question further, along with more linked concepts in that network, to return a related concept sharing links to both France and Capital city, which happens to be Paris, and thus this concept sends a signal back to the “knower” or basically the verbal part of our brains which will give the answer.

So, it’s a kind of triangulation in a sense.

Just an idea anyway.
Suppose that we had a trip last summer and visited several locations. This is a big chunk of memory. Now suppose that on one occasion I ask you whether you remember our trip last summer. This is a very specific question pointing to our trip last summer. You answer yes without recalling all things we have done on the trip. This is a sort of awareness that points to the whole story. I then become more specific and asked the name of the city that we visited first. This a question that activates the network of all references first. Once the reference is found then the network related to name is activated. You could remember or not if the second search is successful or not. Regardless you know that you know even if you cannot recall the name of the city at that moment because the first search among references was successful. That is how we know what we know. The opposite also very simple, how do we know that we don't know? The reference simply does not exist.
Most of the time when we know something, the answer just comes out without effort. When we feel like we should know something but don’t, or maybe did know it but now can’t remember it is a combination of the feeling that we do know it and can’t currently reproduce the answer, which results in a feeling of annoyance.

What is strange is, the conscious effort of trying to “search” for the answer, seems to actually hinder the process. I have noticed that remembering is more of a passive process, conscious intervention seems to interrupt and interfere with the finding. As long as the question is kept in the back of one’s mind so to speak, or just below the level of conscious intention, the answer tends to emerge.
Interesting. I haven't noticed that conscious efforts actually hinder the process. I have to check that.
Impenitent
Posts: 4330
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Impenitent »

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?
ask a woodchuck

-Imp
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Dontaskme »

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm It is through references. All things that we have experienced in our lives exist in long-term memory. There is a reference for each thing. We are presented by the reference first always because it is more economical. We can retrieve the information related to the thing by reference if we can remember the thing and if it is needed. We are left with the reference only and cannot remember the thing if we cannot retrieve the information.



How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?
We do not know that we know. And we do not know that we do not know. That's how.

Logically, it is known that there is no knower, which is illogical, and is why reality is irrational.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by bahman »

Dontaskme wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:09 am
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm It is through references. All things that we have experienced in our lives exist in long-term memory. There is a reference for each thing. We are presented by the reference first always because it is more economical. We can retrieve the information related to the thing by reference if we can remember the thing and if it is needed. We are left with the reference only and cannot remember the thing if we cannot retrieve the information.



How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?
We do not know that we know. And we do not know that we do not know. That's how.

Logically, it is known that there is no knower, which is illogical, and is why reality is irrational.
Do you remember what you wrote here?
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Dontaskme »

bahman wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:21 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:09 am
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:29 pm It is through references. All things that we have experienced in our lives exist in long-term memory. There is a reference for each thing. We are presented by the reference first always because it is more economical. We can retrieve the information related to the thing by reference if we can remember the thing and if it is needed. We are left with the reference only and cannot remember the thing if we cannot retrieve the information.



How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?
We do not know that we know. And we do not know that we do not know. That's how.

Logically, it is known that there is no knower, which is illogical, and is why reality is irrational.
Do you remember what you wrote here?
I remember what I wrote when I read what I wrote back to myself.
commonsense
Posts: 5115
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by commonsense »

I can remember what I wrote in this sentence without rereading the words.

But that only addresses short term memory. It has to make it into long term memory if I am going to be able to recite the sentence next week.

Even if the memory gets stored in long term, without reinforcement I’m likely to lose it anyway.
Post Reply