How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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commonsense
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by commonsense »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:42 pm
commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:11 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:40 am

What do you think of the idea that if you could lose your memory, then you never really had it ?
Serious concept wrapped in what could be considered a witticism!

Certainly you would have no memory of your memory.

Anecdotally, I am amnestic for a couple of weeks surrounding ECT a number of years ago. Immediately upon awakening with amnesia, I was confused and aware of my confusion. Over a short period of time, I was able to make connections between what I found in my environment and items from my less-immediate past. There remained a strange feeling whenever I wanted to think about the missing period of time.

Eventually though, the lapse of memory seems just the same as the normal loss of memory that occur with age.
Thanks for the reply.

I was thinking more along the lines of there is no actual person, ( I ) there to control the functions of the memory, whether the memory is fading, or lost completely, and then returning.
Without memory there certainly is no individual person, but the concept that without memory there is no person at all is intriguing.

Without memory, wouldn’t one essentially be a zombie?
Age
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:21 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:00 pm
A reference is something that refers to something else, a spoken sentence for example.
ONCE AGAIN, you have completely and utterly MISSED, MISREAD, MISUNDERSTOOD, or MISINTERPRETED, or just plain 'tried to' DEFLECT from, what I actually said and MEANT.
I cannot help you if you would not help me.
WHY do you PRESUME or BELIEVE here that I 'need' or 'want' 'help?
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm Could you please rephrase the question?
Yes.

Is that the written or spoken sentences that we express only, or does this include the sentences spoken but held within, THE HEAD, as well?

Is that better?
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:00 pm
Yes. But harder you try to memorize a thing easier is the retrieval.
Do you PURPOSELY mean to NOT UNDERSTAND what I write and say?
I answered yes.
Yes you did. But then you added on some 'things', which appears to show, to 'me', that you do NOT understand what I was saying and meaning.
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:00 pm
Yes. It can hold some items for about 30 seconds.
LOL VERY SPECIFIC.

So, to 'you', something that you experienced say, 31 seconds ago, is in the long-term memory, correct?
yes.
But something that you experienced 30 seconds ago, is in the short-term memory, right?
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am If yes, then this explains WHY you responded the way you did to my previous question with a "Yes".
What do you mean?
What I mean is, I understood WHY you responded the way you did, to that previous question, with a "Yes".
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:00 pm
Could you please more be specific?
You wrote what you did here in the quote, correct?
Which quote?
In the quote that was in the part of the post where I wrote that sentence.
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am If yes, then WHY are you telling 'us' what you wrote?
What do you mean?
What I mean is what I wrote.

You wrote some 'thing', so WHY are you telling 'us' what you wrote?

If you can NOT remember what this was in reference to, then just, literally, FORGET IT.

But if you are just 'trying to' DEFLECT, then you are doing a GREAT JOB.
AlexW
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by AlexW »

commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:48 pm Without memory there certainly is no individual person, but the concept that without memory there is no person at all is intriguing.

Without memory, wouldn’t one essentially be a zombie?
Haha... thats a funny idea.
When you were born - a baby - were you a zombie?

Not remembering something - or even anything - simply leaves one with what could be called "natural functioning" - just like the animal world functions naturally (and maybe... yes... when you get really hungry you might eat your neighbour :-) or you might see someone eating a hotdog and find that being the easier option)
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Dontaskme
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Dontaskme »

AlexW wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:55 am
commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:48 pm Without memory there certainly is no individual person, but the concept that without memory there is no person at all is intriguing.

Without memory, wouldn’t one essentially be a zombie?
Haha... thats a funny idea.
When you were born - a baby - were you a zombie?

Not remembering something - or even anything - simply leaves one with what could be called "natural functioning" - just like the animal world functions naturally (and maybe... yes... when you get really hungry you might eat your neighbour :-) or you might see someone eating a hotdog and find that being the easier option)
Haha, I was just coming to answer this reply from commonsense, but you beat me to it Alex. :D

Thanks, and well put.
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bahman
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:37 am
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:21 pm
ONCE AGAIN, you have completely and utterly MISSED, MISREAD, MISUNDERSTOOD, or MISINTERPRETED, or just plain 'tried to' DEFLECT from, what I actually said and MEANT.
I cannot help you if you would not help me.
WHY do you PRESUME or BELIEVE here that I 'need' or 'want' 'help?
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm Could you please rephrase the question?
Yes.

Is that the written or spoken sentences that we express only, or does this include the sentences spoken but held within, THE HEAD, as well?

Is that better?
I am talking about the sentence and the related reference within the head.
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
Do you PURPOSELY mean to NOT UNDERSTAND what I write and say?
I answered yes.
Yes you did. But then you added on some 'things', which appears to show, to 'me', that you do NOT understand what I was saying and meaning.
Ok.
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
LOL VERY SPECIFIC.

So, to 'you', something that you experienced say, 31 seconds ago, is in the long-term memory, correct?
yes.
But something that you experienced 30 seconds ago, is in the short-term memory, right?
Yes.
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am If yes, then this explains WHY you responded the way you did to my previous question with a "Yes".
What do you mean?
What I mean is, I understood WHY you responded the way you did, to that previous question, with a "Yes".
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
You wrote what you did here in the quote, correct?
Which quote?
In the quote that was in the part of the post where I wrote that sentence.
Which sentence?
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:13 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am If yes, then WHY are you telling 'us' what you wrote?
What do you mean?
What I mean is what I wrote.

You wrote some 'thing', so WHY are you telling 'us' what you wrote?

If you can NOT remember what this was in reference to, then just, literally, FORGET IT.

But if you are just 'trying to' DEFLECT, then you are doing a GREAT JOB.
What did you write and what is it response to?
commonsense
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by commonsense »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:36 am
AlexW wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:55 am
commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:48 pm Without memory there certainly is no individual person, but the concept that without memory there is no person at all is intriguing.

Without memory, wouldn’t one essentially be a zombie?
Haha... thats a funny idea.
When you were born - a baby - were you a zombie?

Not remembering something - or even anything - simply leaves one with what could be called "natural functioning" - just like the animal world functions naturally (and maybe... yes... when you get really hungry you might eat your neighbour :-) or you might see someone eating a hotdog and find that being the easier option)
Haha, I was just coming to answer this reply from commonsense, but you beat me to it Alex. :D

Thanks, and well put.
Ah yes, I overlooked babies. :roll:

Does either of you think there should be a distinction made between losing memory and not having a memory to lose?
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Dontaskme
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Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by Dontaskme »

commonsense wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:03 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:36 am
AlexW wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:55 am
Haha... thats a funny idea.
When you were born - a baby - were you a zombie?

Not remembering something - or even anything - simply leaves one with what could be called "natural functioning" - just like the animal world functions naturally (and maybe... yes... when you get really hungry you might eat your neighbour :-) or you might see someone eating a hotdog and find that being the easier option)
Haha, I was just coming to answer this reply from commonsense, but you beat me to it Alex. :D

Thanks, and well put.
Ah yes, I overlooked babies. :roll:

Does either of you think there should be a distinction made between losing memory and not having a memory to lose?
Well I was going to respond by saying a memory is not you, to be you needs no memory. You are always here now alive. Only the immediate present is alive. Memory is dead.
Associating yourself to a memory is associating with a zombie.

You cannot lose a memory you do not have.
commonsense
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Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: How do we know that we know and how do we know that we don't know?

Post by commonsense »

Agree.
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