Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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commonsense
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by commonsense »

bahman wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:49 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:37 pm So mind is associated, rather than free, and it is immortal once body dies. There are many who enthusiastically agree.
By associate, I mean that it perceives data that a body provides. It affects the same body too. The mind is always immortal.
But now we’re back to square one: unless you have another way to show that mind is immortal, then it cannot be said that it’s immortal.
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bahman
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by bahman »

commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:38 am
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:49 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:37 pm So mind is associated, rather than free, and it is immortal once body dies. There are many who enthusiastically agree.
By associate, I mean that it perceives data that a body provides. It affects the same body too. The mind is always immortal.
But now we’re back to square one: unless you have another way to show that mind is immortal, then it cannot be said that it’s immortal.
I just need to assume that the mind has free will. By free will, I mean it can choose an option freely in a given situation that is defined by at least two options. I don't need more.
commonsense
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by commonsense »

bahman wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:55 am
commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:38 am
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:49 pm
By associate, I mean that it perceives data that a body provides. It affects the same body too. The mind is always immortal.
But now we’re back to square one: unless you have another way to show that mind is immortal, then it cannot be said that it’s immortal.
I just need to assume that the mind has free will. By free will, I mean it can choose an option freely in a given situation that is defined by at least two options. I don't need more.
Apples and oranges. If what you say is right, then the mind is definitely mortal.
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bahman
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by bahman »

commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:07 am
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:55 am
commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:38 am

But now we’re back to square one: unless you have another way to show that mind is immortal, then it cannot be said that it’s immortal.
I just need to assume that the mind has free will. By free will, I mean it can choose an option freely in a given situation that is defined by at least two options. I don't need more.
Apples and oranges. If what you say is right, then the mind is definitely mortal.
Well, that is derived in OP which has four parts. Which part do you have an objection to?
Dimebag
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by Dimebag »

So Bahman, it seems you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want mind to be separate from the body and brain, but able to start causal chains and yet not be affected by causal chains and thus have no reason for those causes to be caused by the mind, yet, not choose randomly, but with assistance from the contents of memory and perception, all while maintaining pristine protection of the mind from all external causes.

What you are asking for is not logically possible, there must be some allowance. The form of free will and the mind brain interface you present here do not and cannot logically adhere to any plausible reality.

Do you agree with my summation of your conception of mind? If not, where do you disagree?
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bahman
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by bahman »

Dimebag wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:45 am So Bahman, it seems you want to have your cake and eat it too.
Oh yeah, I love cake! :mrgreen:
Dimebag wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:45 am You want mind to be separate from the body and brain, but able to start causal chains and yet not be affected by causal chains and thus have no reason for those causes to be caused by the mind,
Yes and no. The mind is a separate entity. It can be affected by external stimuli in the sense that it experiences them. Yet, it is free to decide in the sense that it can follow a chain causality or break it. For example, now I can stop thinking in spite of the fact that the stream of thought flowing into my mind.
Dimebag wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:45 am yet, not choose randomly,
The choice is not random from the first perspective point of view, the person who decides since s/he wants it. It however looks random from the third perspective point of view.
Dimebag wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:45 am but with assistance from the contents of memory and perception, all while maintaining pristine protection of the mind from all external causes.
The mind is affected by external causes in the sense that it experiences them but it is not forced to follow them.
Dimebag wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:45 am What you are asking for is not logically possible, there must be some allowance. The form of free will and the mind brain interface you present here do not and cannot logically adhere to any plausible reality.
It is. I for example can drink a sip of tea or not. Tea is there. The situation is indifferent so I can decide freely. In fact, I can even go against the indifferent situation when my needs ask for tea but my mind says no for no reason.
Dimebag wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:45 am Do you agree with my summation of your conception of mind? If not, where do you disagree?
I hope I cleared that out. Let me know what do you think.
commonsense
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by commonsense »

commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:11 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:40 am So I have to prove four things given that the mind is free to reach the conclusion: 1) The mind is free therefore it is the uncaused cause, 2) The mind is the uncaused cause means that its existence does not depend on something else, 3) Therefore, the mind is not created either, and 4) Therefore the mind cannot be destroyed.
If the mind is free, then, as you point out elsewhere in this thread, it is truly independent of the body. Being independent, mind could exist anywhere.

In existing anywhere, mind could actually depart from a body at will, entering another body at any time.

An arrangement of cohabitation of this kind does not occur. Aside from disease states, 2 or more minds do not exist in 1 body. Mind is restricted in that way. A restricted mind is not free.

An unrestricted mind, outside of any body, is not known to exist. A free-floating independent mind, associated with no body, cannot be known to exist.

While entertaining the thought that an argument different than the OP’s might support the title of the thread, I reject the particular argument presented for the existence of immortal mind.
bahman, this post is in response to your question, “Which part do you have an objection to?”
commonsense
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by commonsense »

bahman wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:47 pm
You have a dead body if both conscious and subconscious minds leave the body. Where do they go? Another layer of reality if there is any. Otherwise, detached from reality waiting for the time to attach again.
And the above is your “rebuttal” to the statement that mind is not immortal.

You seem to be saying that when body dies, mind either transfers to another plane of reality or to an existence in non-reality.

So your response is that when body dies mind becomes immortal, which is not true, as shown in my post above. Please provide details.
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bahman
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by bahman »

commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:11 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:11 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:40 am So I have to prove four things given that the mind is free to reach the conclusion: 1) The mind is free therefore it is the uncaused cause, 2) The mind is the uncaused cause means that its existence does not depend on something else, 3) Therefore, the mind is not created either, and 4) Therefore the mind cannot be destroyed.
If the mind is free, then, as you point out elsewhere in this thread, it is truly independent of the body. Being independent, mind could exist anywhere.
Free in the sense that it could decide freely decide between two options. I don't need the free in the sense that you define it.
commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:37 pm In existing anywhere, mind could actually depart from a body at will, entering another body at any time.
As I mentioned I had out of body experience. It is up to you to find a way to experience it.
commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:37 pm An arrangement of cohabitation of this kind does not occur. Aside from disease states, 2 or more minds do not exist in 1 body. Mind is restricted in that way. A restricted mind is not free.
I don't need the free in your sense to show that it is immortal.
commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:37 pm
commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:37 pm An unrestricted mind, outside of any body, is not known to exist. A free-floating independent mind, associated with no body, cannot be known to exist.

While entertaining the thought that an argument different than the OP’s might support the title of the thread, I reject the particular argument presented for the existence of immortal mind.
bahman, this post is in response to your question, “Which part do you have an objection to?”
A detached mind from reality cannot affect reality so you cannot detect it.
commonsense
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by commonsense »

So where are the deets about how mind choosing between 2 options makes it immortal?
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bahman
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by bahman »

commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:21 pm So where are the deets about how mind choosing between 2 options makes it immortal?
The gap can be filled in four steps: 1) The mind is free therefore it is the uncaused cause, 2) The mind is the uncaused cause means that its existence does not depend on something else, 3) Therefore, the mind is not created either, and 4) Therefore the mind cannot be destroyed.

(1) is hard and needs long elaboration. (4) is hard too and needs good imagination and elaboration. (2) and (3) are simple. Which one do you want to start from?
Age
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by Age »

"bahman" WHY do you think that NOT one person here can follow your so called "logic"?

And, why do you think that NO one agrees with and accepts your arguments/conclusion here?
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bahman
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:42 pm "bahman" WHY do you think that NOT one person here can follow your so called "logic"?

And, why do you think that NO one agrees with and accepts your arguments/conclusion here?
I am here to make my logic simple.
Age
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:46 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:42 pm "bahman" WHY do you think that NOT one person here can follow your so called "logic"?

And, why do you think that NO one agrees with and accepts your arguments/conclusion here?
I am here to make my logic simple.
LOL Well you are NOT doing a very good job of that.

If you want to make your, so called, "logic" SIMPLE, then EXPLAIN YOUR CONTRADICTION when you state and CLAIM:

"we ARE minds" with "we HAVE minds"?

I have ALREADY EXPLAINED and SHOWN that it is a logical IMPOSSIBILITY to be the 'thing' that you have.
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bahman
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Re: Mind is free therefore it is immortal

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:00 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:46 pm
Age wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:42 pm "bahman" WHY do you think that NOT one person here can follow your so called "logic"?

And, why do you think that NO one agrees with and accepts your arguments/conclusion here?
I am here to make my logic simple.
LOL Well you are NOT doing a very good job of that.

If you want to make your, so called, "logic" SIMPLE, then EXPLAIN YOUR CONTRADICTION when you state and CLAIM:

"we ARE minds" with "we HAVE minds"?

I have ALREADY EXPLAINED and SHOWN that it is a logical IMPOSSIBILITY to be the 'thing' that you have.
I do what I can.
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