There is a change therefore there is a mind

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

Post by Terrapin Station »

bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:53 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:49 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:48 pm The system exists at any point in time. No time no change. Change is different from time, therefore. You however can have time but no change.
What would be evidence of having time but no change?
I experience time at any period that I am waiting for something. It must exist so my mind gets affected with. How mind could be affected by something which does not exist?
What in the world? I'm not saying that time doesn't exist. I asked you to give evidence of time occurring where there is no change. That's what you claimed is possible, right?
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bahman
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:14 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:53 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:49 pm

What would be evidence of having time but no change?
I experience time at any period that I am waiting for something. It must exist so my mind gets affected with. How mind could be affected by something which does not exist?
What in the world? I'm not saying that time doesn't exist. I asked you to give evidence of time occurring where there is no change. That's what you claimed is possible, right?
I gave the evidence. I experience the time when I am waiting for change to happen. Flat space-time is also the solution of the general relativity equation when there is no mass.
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

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bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:19 pm I gave the evidence. I experience the time when I am waiting for change to happen.
Okay, so detail how you experience time (with no change occurring). What exactly are you experiencing? Thoughts? Something else?
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bahman
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:24 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:19 pm I gave the evidence. I experience the time when I am waiting for change to happen.
Okay, so detail how you experience time (with no change occurring). What exactly are you experiencing? Thoughts? Something else?
When I am waiting, when there is no thought, when the rest of the stuff but time that I experience are motionless.
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

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bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:34 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:24 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:19 pm I gave the evidence. I experience the time when I am waiting for change to happen.
Okay, so detail how you experience time (with no change occurring). What exactly are you experiencing? Thoughts? Something else?
When I am waiting, when there is no thought, when the rest of the stuff but time that I experience are motionless.
Right, so you're waiting, there is no thought, and there is evidence of time via what? It sounds like you're not experiencing anything but stasis, so what would be the evidence of time in that state? For example, what would be evidence of seconds or whatever passing?
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

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Just to reiterate, the task isn't only to present evidence of no changes occurring. It's to present evidence of (1) time existing while (2) no changes are occurring. You can't just present evidence of (2) and that's it. We need evidence of (1) too.

Quoting what I said above: "I asked you to give evidence of time occurring where there is no change." What's the evidence of the time part in your example?
Last edited by Terrapin Station on Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bahman
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:40 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:34 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:24 pm

Okay, so detail how you experience time (with no change occurring). What exactly are you experiencing? Thoughts? Something else?
When I am waiting, when there is no thought, when the rest of the stuff but time that I experience are motionless.
Right, so you're waiting, there is no thought, and there is evidence of time via what? It sounds like you're not experiencing anything but stasis, so what would be the evidence of time in that state? For example, what would be evidence of seconds or whatever passing?
You might be focussing on objects so experience stasis.
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

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bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:52 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:40 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:34 pm
When I am waiting, when there is no thought, when the rest of the stuff but time that I experience are motionless.
Right, so you're waiting, there is no thought, and there is evidence of time via what? It sounds like you're not experiencing anything but stasis, so what would be the evidence of time in that state? For example, what would be evidence of seconds or whatever passing?
You might be focussing on objects so experience stasis.
Sure. What you keep ignoring is that you're also supposed to be presenting evidence of time in the example. Where is that?
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bahman
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:52 pm Just to reiterate, the task isn't only to present evidence of no changes occurring. It's to present evidence of (1) time existing while (2) no changes are occurring. You can't just present evidence of (2) and that's it. We need evidence of (1) too.
No change is just an approximation of reality.
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:52 pm Quoting what I said above: "I asked you to give evidence of time occurring where there is no change." What's the evidence of the time part in your example?
I gave you two evidences. I experience time when there is no change and flat space-time is the solution of the general relativity equation when there is no mass.
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

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bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:07 pm I gave you two evidences. I experience time when there is no change
And I'm asking you to detail HOW you experience time. Explain this in detail. Simply claiming it without explaining exactly what it consists of doesn't work. Exactly what do you experience--what are you sensing, thinking, etc.--whatever--that you're counting as time?


Re the other thing, I'm avoiding that for the moment, partially because it has nothing to do with the experience example.
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bahman
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:53 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:52 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:40 pm

Right, so you're waiting, there is no thought, and there is evidence of time via what? It sounds like you're not experiencing anything but stasis, so what would be the evidence of time in that state? For example, what would be evidence of seconds or whatever passing?
You might be focussing on objects so experience stasis.
Sure. What you keep ignoring is that you're also supposed to be presenting evidence of time in the example. Where is that?
Waiting is the evidence.
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

Post by Terrapin Station »

bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:12 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:53 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:52 pm
You might be focussing on objects so experience stasis.
Sure. What you keep ignoring is that you're also supposed to be presenting evidence of time in the example. Where is that?
Waiting is the evidence.
If nothing is changing while you're waiting, how would you know any time is passing?
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bahman
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:10 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:07 pm I gave you two evidences. I experience time when there is no change
And I'm asking you to detail HOW you experience time. Explain this in detail. Simply claiming it without explaining exactly what it consists of doesn't work. Exactly what do you experience--what are you sensing, thinking, etc.--whatever--that you're counting as time?


Re the other thing, I'm avoiding that for the moment, partially because it has nothing to do with the experience example.
Waiting. Think of being sentenced to 10 years in solitary. It takes time to fill those empty points.
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bahman
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

Post by bahman »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:17 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:12 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:53 pm

Sure. What you keep ignoring is that you're also supposed to be presenting evidence of time in the example. Where is that?
Waiting is the evidence.
If nothing is changing while you're waiting, how would you know any time is passing?
If nothing changes then there will be no experience so something changes when the object doesn't change. Waiting is the passage of time.
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Re: There is a change therefore there is a mind

Post by Terrapin Station »

bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:25 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:17 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:12 pm
Waiting is the evidence.
If nothing is changing while you're waiting, how would you know any time is passing?
If nothing changes then there will be no experience so something changes when the object doesn't change. Waiting is the passage of time.
If something changes (otherwise there is no experience, and we're talking about an experience), then this is NOT an example of time with no changes happening.

Again, the task was to give evidence of time occurring where there is no change
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