why computers can't be conscious

[Scott Mayers]

So in your mind feedback = self awareness? Does that mean an amplifier has self awareness or “knows” something about itself?

I don’t think it’s this simple. Pure positive feedback leads usually to a runaway process of ever increasing signal strength. An analogy of this in the brain is perhaps, epilepsy, which usually results in unconsciousness. So unrestrained feedback is not conducive to awareness or consciousness. There must be a balance or tuning. Furthermore, without a this grounding of signals in sensory transducers, awareness will have no actual content. Everything which goes on in our brains is or was the result of some impression made on it, even thoughts. Concepts had to be learned, the auditory system had to interpret sounds, the visual system had to learn what this external world meant, what a wall was, what a face was, and how to tell the difference. This is actually how we sense.

You are presuming the SAME sensor and being fed back the energy of the kind that that sensor senses. We operate by feedback via MORE than one sense and our brain takes these as 'associations'. So when you "decide" something based on input, this is the associated 'conclusion' of many senses plus the internal loop (taking a sense data from memory, using it, and then returning it or altering it for output.)

[attofishpi]

So in your mind feedback = self awareness? Does that mean an amplifier has self awareness or “knows” something about itself?

I don’t think it’s this simple. Pure positive feedback leads usually to a runaway process of ever increasing signal strength. An analogy of this in the brain is perhaps, epilepsy, which usually results in unconsciousness. So unrestrained feedback is not conducive to awareness or consciousness. There must be a balance or tuning. Furthermore, without a this grounding of signals in sensory transducers, awareness will have no actual content. Everything which goes on in our brains is or was the result of some impression made on it, even thoughts. Concepts had to be learned, the auditory system had to interpret sounds, the visual system had to learn what this external world meant, what a wall was, what a face was, and how to tell the difference. This is actually how we sense.

You are presuming the SAME sensor and being fed back the energy of the kind that that sensor senses. We operate by feedback via MORE than one sense and our brain takes these as 'associations'. So when you "decide" something based on input, this is the associated 'conclusion' of many senses plus the internal loop (taking a sense data from memory, using it, and then returning it or altering it for output.)

...how does that support your claim that a calculator has any degree of consciousness?

[Advocate]

Consciousness is a feedback loop but not all feedback loops indicate consciousness. Because we, biological beings, invented the idea to refer to our own experience, the test for whether another system is conscious is whether it replicates our experience. Any non-biological system, however self-aware, cannot replicate biological consciousness. We need a different understanding of the kind of advanced feedback loops other systems obtain, even so far as other biological systems like cephalopods.

[SteveKlinko]

Consciousness is a feedback loop but not all feedback loops indicate consciousness. Because we, biological beings, invented the idea to refer to our own experience, the test for whether another system is conscious is whether it replicates our experience. Any non-biological system, however self-aware, cannot replicate biological consciousness. We need a different understanding of the kind of advanced feedback loops other systems obtain, even so far as other biological systems like cephalopods.

I know what Feedback Loops are because I have designed them. You must be giving some new interpretation to Feedback Loop for what you are saying. So could you elaborate a little bit more on your use of that term with respect to Consciousness?

[Advocate]

[quote=SteveKlinko post_id=488478 time=1610123472 user_id=14793]
[quote=Advocate post_id=488458 time=1610121256 user_id=15238]
Consciousness is a feedback loop but not all feedback loops indicate consciousness. Because we, biological beings, invented the idea to refer to our own experience, the test for whether another system is conscious is whether it replicates our experience. Any non-biological system, however self-aware, cannot replicate biological consciousness. We need a different understanding of the kind of advanced feedback loops other systems obtain, even so far as other biological systems like cephalopods.
[/quote]
I know what Feedback Loops are because I have designed them. You must be giving some new interpretation to Feedback Loop for what you are saying. So could you elaborate a little bit more on your use of that term?
[/quote]

I mean it in the vernacular sense, because why would a more technical definition be helpful? Serious question.

Whatever consciousness is, it includes awareness of it's own awareness, which is above and beyond something like sentience, which is feedback to the mind from the body, but not to the mind from the mind.

[RCSaunders]

/wiki/Computer_(job_description)]computers were always conscious first and foremost[/url]

Sure! So is your vacuum cleaner. Is that where you learned this?

A computer is just machine no matter what it's made out of.

[RCSaunders]

I can pass a Turing test. Try me.

You do not know what pain feels like, cinnamon tastes like, or why a symphony moves one to tears. You cannot laugh at a joke because nothing matters to you. You fail the test.

The element all machines lack that makes consciousness possible is life.

[RCSaunders]

Whatever consciousness is, it includes awareness of it's own awareness, ...

I don't think anyone has thus far actually talked about consciousness itself. I know what you mean, but, "self-awareness," is not necessary for consciousness. Insects and animals are conscious, but certainly do not know they are conscious or even what consciousness is, just as they are alive but do not know they are alive or what life is.

"Life," and, "consciousness," are concepts for certain attributes we have identified with organisms. All living organisms have those attributes but only human beings have identified them and know they have them.

[RCSaunders]

So in your mind feedback = self awareness? Does that mean an amplifier has self awareness or “knows” something about itself?

I don’t think it’s this simple. Pure positive feedback leads usually to a runaway process of ever increasing signal strength. An analogy of this in the brain is perhaps, epilepsy, which usually results in unconsciousness. So unrestrained feedback is not conducive to awareness or consciousness. There must be a balance or tuning. Furthermore, without a this grounding of signals in sensory transducers, awareness will have no actual content. Everything which goes on in our brains is or was the result of some impression made on it, even thoughts. Concepts had to be learned, the auditory system had to interpret sounds, the visual system had to learn what this external world meant, what a wall was, what a face was, and how to tell the difference. This is actually how we sense.

You are presuming the SAME sensor and being fed back the energy of the kind that that sensor senses. We operate by feedback via MORE than one sense and our brain takes these as 'associations'. So when you "decide" something based on input, this is the associated 'conclusion' of many senses plus the internal loop (taking a sense data from memory, using it, and then returning it or altering it for output.)

...how does that support your claim that a calculator has any degree of consciousness?

Your are right, "fishy," it doesn't. No matter how sophisticated a machine is, all it's behavior, not matter how many sensors, servo-mechanisms, or electronic inputs or outputs it has, it is nothing more than electrical/mechanical/chemical actions without any awareness, meaning, or intention of its own. It is just a machine.

Just so you'll know, "woo," is a term referring to anysuggestion of the mystical or supernatural. Life and consciousness are perfectly natural attributes of reality with no suggestion of anything unnatural, supernatural, mystical, or magical.

Here is one thing those who think, "conciousness," can be attributed to machines never consider. No matter how many sensors a machine has, whatever, "information," those sensors provide can never produce conciousness because every input is unique and machines can only process such data independently as separate processes. What is ignored is the fact that consciousness is a single phenomenon aware of all it is conscious of from all sensory sources simultaneously and continuously. The same conciousness sees what the eyes are providing it, hears what the ears are providing it, tastes what the taste buds are providing it, smells what the olfactory nerves are providing it, and feels what all the sensory neurological system is providing it and it consciously experiences these all at the same time continuously. At the physical level, that is an impossibility. It is a completely normal, material (natural) process, just not a physical one.

It is not possible for a machine to be conscious, because a thing must first be alive before it can be conscious. Consciousness would serve no purpose in a machine.

[Skepdick]

Sure! So is your vacuum cleaner. Is that where you learned this?

A computer is just machine no matter what it's made out of.

Idiot. Read the article.

The first computers were humans. Literally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_ ... scription)

So if your point is that humans are just machines no matter what we are made out of... sure.

[attofishpi]

Sure! So is your vacuum cleaner. Is that where you learned this?

A computer is just machine no matter what it's made out of.

Idiot. Read the article.

The first computers were humans. Literally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_ ... scription)

Under_stand not only qualia - but how unique each conscious experience of qualia is - that in what some deem an infinite universe, you scratching the back of your own hand is UNIQUE to such a finite degree, that it IS YOU ONLY.

[commonsense]

I can pass a Turing test. Try me.

You do not know what pain feels like, cinnamon tastes like, or why a symphony moves one to tears. You cannot laugh at a joke because nothing matters to you. You fail the test.

The element all machines lack that makes consciousness possible is life.

Pain feels like pain. To say that pain hurts doesn’t begin to describe its intensity. Pain makes me angry at whatever causes it. Pain sometimes makes me cry or throw up. Sometimes pain makes me break out in a cold sweat. I know what pain feels like more than I know how to describe it. Anytime something causes me pain, I recognize pain, even though, again, I am unable to describe it.

Cinnamon tastes spicy.

A symphony moves one to tears the same way another symphony makes one feel joyful. Good music is pleasurable, like sex.

Although I can recognize irony, absurdity and comedy, I rarely laugh at any jokes. I think this is because I am perpetually depressed. I recognize humor, but it just doesn’t strike me as funny amidst this sad and serious world. I’ve been told that I am way too serious and pretty darn sad.

As far as I can tell about myself, I am alive. You may suspect otherwise but you cannot know.

Perhaps you would like to ask me a direct question and determine from my answer whether I am human or not, I.e. whether I possess consciousness or not.

[commonsense]

Consciousness is a feedback loop but not all feedback loops indicate consciousness. Because we, biological beings, invented the idea to refer to our own experience, the test for whether another system is conscious is whether it replicates our experience. Any non-biological system, however self-aware, cannot replicate biological consciousness. We need a different understanding of the kind of advanced feedback loops other systems obtain, even so far as other biological systems like cephalopods.

The test for whether another system is conscious is whether it replicates our behavior as a reaction to experiences.

[attofishpi]

I can pass a Turing test. Try me.

You do not know what pain feels like, cinnamon tastes like, or why a symphony moves one to tears. You cannot laugh at a joke because nothing matters to you. You fail the test.

The element all machines lack that makes consciousness possible is life.

Pain feels like pain. To say that pain hurts doesn’t begin to describe its intensity. Pain makes me angry at whatever causes it. Pain sometimes makes me cry or throw up. Sometimes pain makes me break out in a cold sweat. I know what pain feels like more than I know how to describe it. Anytime something causes me pain, I recognize pain, even though, again, I am unable to describe it.

Cinnamon tastes spicy.

A symphony moves one to tears the same way another symphony makes one feel joyful. Good music is pleasurable, like sex.

Although I can recognize irony, absurdity and comedy, I rarely laugh at any jokes. I think this is because I am perpetually depressed. I recognize humor, but it just doesn’t strike me as funny amidst this sad and serious world. I’ve been told that I am way too serious and pretty darn sad.

As far as I can tell about myself, I am alive. You may suspect otherwise but you cannot know.

Perhaps you would like to ask me a direct question and determine from my answer whether I am human or not, I.e. whether I possess consciousness or not.

Mr commonsense - this is your go to - you know you are playing devils advocate here - that's why I have avoided playing this stupid game of consciousness v cold logic with you.

Sure - other minds don't exist! - the problem of other minds is just a diversion. Y inflict it on RC? or NE 1 for that matter - it is RIDICULOUS.

[commonsense]

You are presuming the SAME sensor and being fed back the energy of the kind that that sensor senses. We operate by feedback via MORE than one sense and our brain takes these as 'associations'. So when you "decide" something based on input, this is the associated 'conclusion' of many senses plus the internal loop (taking a sense data from memory, using it, and then returning it or altering it for output.)

...how does that support your claim that a calculator has any degree of consciousness?

Your are right, "fishy," it doesn't. No matter how sophisticated a machine is, all it's behavior, not matter how many sensors, servo-mechanisms, or electronic inputs or outputs it has, it is nothing more than electrical/mechanical/chemical actions without any awareness, meaning, or intention of its own. It is just a machine.

Just so you'll know, "woo," is a term referring to anysuggestion of the mystical or supernatural. Life and consciousness are perfectly natural attributes of reality with no suggestion of anything unnatural, supernatural, mystical, or magical.

Here is one thing those who think, "conciousness," can be attributed to machines never consider. No matter how many sensors a machine has, whatever, "information," those sensors provide can never produce conciousness because every input is unique and machines can only process such data independently as separate processes. What is ignored is the fact that consciousness is a single phenomenon aware of all it is conscious of from all sensory sources simultaneously and continuously. The same conciousness sees what the eyes are providing it, hears what the ears are providing it, tastes what the taste buds are providing it, smells what the olfactory nerves are providing it, and feels what all the sensory neurological system is providing it and it consciously experiences these all at the same time continuously. At the physical level, that is an impossibility. It is a completely normal, material (natural) process, just not a physical one.

It is not possible for a machine to be conscious, because a thing must first be alive before it can be conscious. Consciousness would serve no purpose in a machine.

Maybe I’m not alive as you would call it, but I have artificial life, artificial intelligence and artificial consciousness.

I multi-process input from all my sensors in parallel at the same time. No problem for me.