Conscious is passive in materialism

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Sculptor
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:48 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:27 pm Materialists argue that consciousness is the result of matter activity, neurons firing, but if that was true then consciousness is passive since it is the result of something else therefore it cannot cause something else. You need something else which take this potentiality and gives new actuality to it.
Yes, the Materialist/Phyisicalist view completely obliterates any concept of Volition. They cannot Explain how Neurons can Desire to do anything.
Funny how you employ the discoveries of materialism to attmept to refute it. LOL
If materialism/physicalism cannot explain volition than no one can.
Materialism have given us all the details for a perfect description of volition which includes neurones, hormones, enzymes and much more.
What have you got? Nothing!
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:27 pm Materialists argue that consciousness is the result of matter activity, neurons firing, but if that was true then consciousness is passive since it is the result of something else therefore it cannot cause something else. You need something else which take this potentiality and gives new actuality to it.
This is what is called, in the Philosophy of Mind, "the downward-causality problem." Another way of putting it is that if the causal explanation for consciousness is in the physical stuff, then how can consciousness be the cause of anything physical?

But we DO think consciousness is a causer of things in the physical realm. We all do: even the most ardent Determinists do, despite all their denials; because by arguing, they hope to change a mind, and thus change a whole bunch of actions --- which should not be possible without alteration to the physical person, if physics are the cause of consciousness.

So a mere argument should not be capable of producing change, either in the cognition or in the physical response of the hearer. But an argument can change how a person thinks and thus how she physically behaves; therefore, we must conclude that the materialist-causal explanation for consciousness is not true.
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:10 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:48 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:27 pm Materialists argue that consciousness is the result of matter activity, neurons firing, but if that was true then consciousness is passive since it is the result of something else therefore it cannot cause something else. You need something else which take this potentiality and gives new actuality to it.
Yes, the Materialist/Phyisicalist view completely obliterates any concept of Volition. They cannot Explain how Neurons can Desire to do anything.
Funny how you employ the discoveries of materialism to attmept to refute it. LOL
If materialism/physicalism cannot explain volition than no one can.
Materialism have given us all the details for a perfect description of volition which includes neurones, hormones, enzymes and much more.
What have you got? Nothing!
Better to admit I don't know than deceive myself with false understanding, because you also have Nothing. That is what I am trying to tell you. Science has no Clue what Conscious Experience is. You only think there is a Clue because you are not thinking this through to the final stage of the processing needed for the Experience itself. Redness, Standard A Tone, and Salty taste are some of the things you refuse to consider and demand Explanations for.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:22 pm Science has no Clue what Conscious Experience is. You only think there is a Clue because you are not thinking this through to the final stage of the processing needed for the Experience itself. Redness, Standard A Tone, and Salty taste are some of the things you refuse to consider and demand Explanations for.
There's a kind of backward thinking that the Materialists do. It goes sort of like this: "Science is the best method we have for getting at the physical stuff in the world; therefore, science must be the explanation for everything." They then assume their own conclusion -- namely, that the final answer whenever we learn what consciousness is must be, and can only be, a physical explanation, and then they confidently argue against anybody who tries to seek out a better explanation. But that's why they're not particularly disturbed when you say, "Science has no clue what conscious experience is." In the backs of their minds, the response is, "Yeah, but when it's found, it's going to be nothing but some form of Materialism."

And they think they know this, because they've already ruled out of their own thinking that there can be any other kind of explanation. :shock:

Of course, their confidence is completely unjustified. It's not more bright than if they'd said, "Economics explains poverty very well, so it also must turn out to be the explanation for cancer." If the two entities in question are actually of different orders, then forcing an explanation from one realm to fit another just produces really absurd conclusions.

In fact, science itself is a product of consciousness. That is, it's a product of humans' unique ability to think, reason, categorize, structure and test things. Animals, which are as fully possessed of physicality as humans are, do not have science, and cannot do science. Science itself is a mental operation, not a physical-causal material complex. Science itself is thus of a different order from materials. Heck, even Materialism is a belief, and is thus of a different order from the causal-material complex.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:08 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:20 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:21 pm

There is a lie in your question.
The conscious state is a physical state of the cerebrum, it enact motions in the body; speech, movements and more thoughts. As a conscious state is already actual, it leads to more actual actions.
So, you pick up a piece of chocolate every time you see one?
Why do you ask?
Because there is an element of decision between the conscious experience and causation. Materialism cannot explain why the decision comes after the experience, how the decision is made, and why causation depends on the decision. Materialism also owes to explain who decision leads to causation.
Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:08 pm Not picking up chocolate is also an action.
An action is made of three states, so-called, conscious experience, decision, and causation.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:29 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:27 pm Materialists argue that consciousness is the result of matter activity, neurons firing, but if that was true then consciousness is passive since it is the result of something else therefore it cannot cause something else. You need something else which take this potentiality and gives new actuality to it.
This is what is called, in the Philosophy of Mind, "the downward-causality problem." Another way of putting it is that if the causal explanation for consciousness is in the physical stuff, then how can consciousness be the cause of anything physical?

But we DO think consciousness is a causer of things in the physical realm. We all do: even the most ardent Determinists do, despite all their denials; because by arguing, they hope to change a mind, and thus change a whole bunch of actions --- which should not be possible without alteration to the physical person, if physics are the cause of consciousness.

So a mere argument should not be capable of producing change, either in the cognition or in the physical response of the hearer. But an argument can change how a person thinks and thus how she physically behaves; therefore, we must conclude that the materialist-causal explanation for consciousness is not true.
Any action is due to the mind. The mind experiences, decides, and causes. Materialism owes to explain how the conscious experience could be the result of matter activity. It also owes to explain how decision comes out matter activity and why it always comes after the conscious experience. Finally, it owes to explain how causation after decision happens.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:48 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:27 pm Materialists argue that consciousness is the result of matter activity, neurons firing, but if that was true then consciousness is passive since it is the result of something else therefore it cannot cause something else. You need something else which take this potentiality and gives new actuality to it.
Yes, the Materialist/Phyisicalist view completely obliterates any concept of Volition. They cannot Explain how Neurons can Desire to do anything.
Yes, Sir/Madam.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:44 pm Any action is due to the mind. The mind experiences, decides, and causes. Materialism owes to explain how the conscious experience could be the result of matter activity. It also owes to explain how decision comes out matter activity and why it always comes after the conscious experience. Finally, it owes to explain how causation after decision happens.
Yes, all of that.
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Sculptor
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:22 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:10 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:48 pm
Yes, the Materialist/Phyisicalist view completely obliterates any concept of Volition. They cannot Explain how Neurons can Desire to do anything.
Funny how you employ the discoveries of materialism to attmept to refute it. LOL
If materialism/physicalism cannot explain volition than no one can.
Materialism have given us all the details for a perfect description of volition which includes neurones, hormones, enzymes and much more.
What have you got? Nothing!
Better to admit I don't know than deceive myself with false understanding, because you also have Nothing. That is what I am trying to tell you. Science has no Clue what Conscious Experience is. You only think there is a Clue because you are not thinking this through to the final stage of the processing needed for the Experience itself. Redness, Standard A Tone, and Salty taste are some of the things you refuse to consider and demand Explanations for.
Since no one knows what consciousness is, the claim that science does not either is nothing more than empty air.
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Sculptor
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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bahman wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:36 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:08 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:20 pm
So, you pick up a piece of chocolate every time you see one?
Why do you ask?
Because there is an element of decision between the conscious experience and causation. Materialism cannot explain why the decision comes after the experience, how the decision is made, and why causation depends on the decision. Materialism also owes to explain who decision leads to causation.
Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:08 pm Not picking up chocolate is also an action.
An action is made of three states, so-called, conscious experience, decision, and causation.
SO what?
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:31 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:36 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:08 pm
Why do you ask?
Because there is an element of decision between the conscious experience and causation. Materialism cannot explain why the decision comes after the experience, how the decision is made, and why causation depends on the decision. Materialism also owes to explain who decision leads to causation.
Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:08 pm Not picking up chocolate is also an action.
An action is made of three states, so-called, conscious experience, decision, and causation.
SO what?
Materialists are confused.
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Sculptor
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:35 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:31 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:36 pm
Because there is an element of decision between the conscious experience and causation. Materialism cannot explain why the decision comes after the experience, how the decision is made, and why causation depends on the decision. Materialism also owes to explain who decision leads to causation.


An action is made of three states, so-called, conscious experience, decision, and causation.
SO what?
Materialists are confused.
Why can't you answer the question?
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:38 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:35 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:31 pm

SO what?
Materialists are confused.
Why can't you answer the question?
An action is made of three states, so-called, conscious experience, decision, and causation. The action is made by the mind and those three last mentioned are abilities of the mind.
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Sculptor
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:47 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:38 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:35 pm
Materialists are confused.
Why can't you answer the question?
An action is made of three states, so-called, conscious experience, decision, and causation. The action is made by the mind and those three last mentioned are abilities of the mind.
Prove it!
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:55 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:47 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:38 pm
Why can't you answer the question?
An action is made of three states, so-called, conscious experience, decision, and causation. The action is made by the mind and those three last mentioned are abilities of the mind.
Prove it!
I have to prove two things: A) Any change requires a conscious mind and B) Change exists therefore the conscious mind exists.

A: Consider a change (like falling an apple or raising your arm), X to Y. X and Y cannot lay at the same point since you cannot have a change. This means that X also has to vanishes to leave room for Y to takes place. There is however nothing when X vanishes and nothing cannot possibly cause Y. Therefore, there should be a conscious mind that experiences X and causes Y.

B:
P1) Change exists
P2) Any change requires a conscious mind
C) Therefore there is a conscious mind
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