Conscious is passive in materialism

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by bahman »

Materialists argue that consciousness is the result of matter activity, neurons firing, but if that was true then consciousness is passive since it is the result of something else therefore it cannot cause something else. You need something else which take this potentiality and gives new actuality to it.
Walker
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Walker »

Hello bahman.

The something else is life. Consciousness and life co-arise from the ocean of potentiality. This potentiality can be considered as passive because of undifferentiation.

Consciousness and life combine under the influence of conditions into a grosser form of physicality called materialism, the physical body. When the body dies, life and consciousness return to the ocean of potentiality, which exists independent of time and conditions.

Because life and consciousness cannot manifest one without the other, they are essentially the same. To be without thought is not the blankness of nothingness.

To be without thought is when the totality of consciousness is undifferentiated by thought.

In the dimension of time, which exists within duality, the totality can be considered via thought’s methods, e.g., concepts, comparisons, analogies, and so on.
Dimebag
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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Under my rough formulation of the purpose of consciousness, it acts as a triggering and feedback mechanism, and thus plays a vital role in action. It is neither active nor passive, it is part of the causal chain.

Imagine you go to grasp your coffee cup, how do your hand muscles know when to close around the handle? They await to receive touch signals from your hand, which are consciously felt. The signals of touch then feed back to the brain mechanism responsible for hand movement, and the fingers grasp the cup, all the while, using the touch and pressure signals to coordinate the process.

Imagine trying to grasp a cup if your hand was numb, it would be rather difficult.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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Walker wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:45 am Hello bahman.

The something else is life. Consciousness and life co-arise from the ocean of potentiality. This potentiality can be considered as passive because of undifferentiation.

Consciousness and life combine under the influence of conditions into a grosser form of physicality called materialism, the physical body. When the body dies, life and consciousness return to the ocean of potentiality, which exists independent of time and conditions.

Because life and consciousness cannot manifest one without the other, they are essentially the same. To be without thought is not the blankness of nothingness.

To be without thought is when the totality of consciousness is undifferentiated by thought.

In the dimension of time, which exists within duality, the totality can be considered via thought’s methods, e.g., concepts, comparisons, analogies, and so on.
Life is not a thing with the ability to turn a potentiality into actuality. Life is a state of affair.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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Dimebag wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:14 pm Under my rough formulation of the purpose of consciousness, it acts as a triggering and feedback mechanism, and thus plays a vital role in action. It is neither active nor passive, it is part of the causal chain.

Imagine you go to grasp your coffee cup, how do your hand muscles know when to close around the handle? They await to receive touch signals from your hand, which are consciously felt. The signals of touch then feed back to the brain mechanism responsible for hand movement, and the fingers grasp the cup, all the while, using the touch and pressure signals to coordinate the process.

Imagine trying to grasp a cup if your hand was numb, it would be rather difficult.
Of course, We need to perceive in order to cause. But the mere experience cannot cause something else since it is not a thing. It is a state of consciousness.
Walker
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Walker »

bahman wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:59 pm Life is not a thing with the ability to turn a potentiality into actuality. Life is a state of affair.
Buildings don't just suddenly appear like toadstools in the forest.

First they are infinite potentiality. Then they are thoughts. Then they are buildings.

The life/consciousness duality is the cause of buildings appearing.
Dimebag
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Dimebag »

bahman wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:08 pm
Dimebag wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:14 pm Under my rough formulation of the purpose of consciousness, it acts as a triggering and feedback mechanism, and thus plays a vital role in action. It is neither active nor passive, it is part of the causal chain.

Imagine you go to grasp your coffee cup, how do your hand muscles know when to close around the handle? They await to receive touch signals from your hand, which are consciously felt. The signals of touch then feed back to the brain mechanism responsible for hand movement, and the fingers grasp the cup, all the while, using the touch and pressure signals to coordinate the process.

Imagine trying to grasp a cup if your hand was numb, it would be rather difficult.
Of course, We need to perceive in order to cause. But the mere experience cannot cause something else since it is not a thing. It is a state of consciousness.
I never said it was a thing, only that it is part of the material universe, and this is also subject to causality. What I mean by material is, everything that there is. It’s definitely not a thing in the sense of the “external” world, yet, the brain from which it is enmeshed is a “thing”. It is part of the “internal” world, which is an artificial boundary created by the mind itself which is perceiving and creating distinctions between inside and outside.

The way I imagine consciousness is like a bubble within space. Inside the bubble, all the experiences happen. The bubble is still part of the universe, as the universe is all there is, but this bubble has projected impressions of the external world, internally inside this bubble, like a hologram, with impressions from the “external” world, being made at the boundary of that bubble, forming the surfaces from which these internal projections are made.

Because of the holographic nature of consciousness, if you try to find those projections, you will only ever find them on the “outer surface”, or the “mem”-brain. In this way, consciousness is in some way, an illusion, in the same way that a hologram is also illusion, a projection. So in that way, consciousness is both a thing and not a thing. It can only ever be known from inside the bubble, from inside the internal projection, and only ever inferred from the outer boundary-surface conditions on the “brane”.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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Walker wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:45 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:59 pm Life is not a thing with the ability to turn a potentiality into actuality. Life is a state of affair.
Buildings don't just suddenly appear like toadstools in the forest.

First they are infinite potentiality. Then they are thoughts. Then they are buildings.

The life/consciousness duality is the cause of buildings appearing.
You need consciousness for any process. Thoughts are a sort of experience although they are needed but they cannot lead to something since they are mere potentiality. You need something to get this potentiality and convert it to actuality. This thing being mind.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by bahman »

Dimebag wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:08 am
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:08 pm
Dimebag wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:14 pm Under my rough formulation of the purpose of consciousness, it acts as a triggering and feedback mechanism, and thus plays a vital role in action. It is neither active nor passive, it is part of the causal chain.

Imagine you go to grasp your coffee cup, how do your hand muscles know when to close around the handle? They await to receive touch signals from your hand, which are consciously felt. The signals of touch then feed back to the brain mechanism responsible for hand movement, and the fingers grasp the cup, all the while, using the touch and pressure signals to coordinate the process.

Imagine trying to grasp a cup if your hand was numb, it would be rather difficult.
Of course, We need to perceive in order to cause. But the mere experience cannot cause something else since it is not a thing. It is a state of consciousness.
I never said it was a thing, only that it is part of the material universe, and this is also subject to causality. What I mean by material is, everything that there is. It’s definitely not a thing in the sense of the “external” world, yet, the brain from which it is enmeshed is a “thing”. It is part of the “internal” world, which is an artificial boundary created by the mind itself which is perceiving and creating distinctions between inside and outside.

The way I imagine consciousness is like a bubble within space. Inside the bubble, all the experiences happen. The bubble is still part of the universe, as the universe is all there is, but this bubble has projected impressions of the external world, internally inside this bubble, like a hologram, with impressions from the “external” world, being made at the boundary of that bubble, forming the surfaces from which these internal projections are made.

Because of the holographic nature of consciousness, if you try to find those projections, you will only ever find them on the “outer surface”, or the “mem”-brain. In this way, consciousness is in some way, an illusion, in the same way that a hologram is also illusion, a projection. So in that way, consciousness is both a thing and not a thing. It can only ever be known from inside the bubble, from inside the internal projection, and only ever inferred from the outer boundary-surface conditions on the “brane”.
Consciousness, what you are trying to describe, whether it is correct or not, is a state of affair. It is a mere potentiality. Potentiality cannot on its own lead to actuality, to cause.
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Sculptor
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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bahman wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:59 pm
Walker wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:45 am Hello bahman.

The something else is life. Consciousness and life co-arise from the ocean of potentiality. This potentiality can be considered as passive because of undifferentiation.

Consciousness and life combine under the influence of conditions into a grosser form of physicality called materialism, the physical body. When the body dies, life and consciousness return to the ocean of potentiality, which exists independent of time and conditions.

Because life and consciousness cannot manifest one without the other, they are essentially the same. To be without thought is not the blankness of nothingness.

To be without thought is when the totality of consciousness is undifferentiated by thought.

In the dimension of time, which exists within duality, the totality can be considered via thought’s methods, e.g., concepts, comparisons, analogies, and so on.
Life is not a thing with the ability to turn a potentiality into actuality. Life is a state of affair.
Nah!
Aeroplanes were imagined before they were ever built.
Living things, called humans (you might know one or two), imagine all sort of things that never existed, yet through acts of will led to physical acts which brought them into existence. This includes every thing from stone axes to computer systems.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:06 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:59 pm
Walker wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:45 am Hello bahman.

The something else is life. Consciousness and life co-arise from the ocean of potentiality. This potentiality can be considered as passive because of undifferentiation.

Consciousness and life combine under the influence of conditions into a grosser form of physicality called materialism, the physical body. When the body dies, life and consciousness return to the ocean of potentiality, which exists independent of time and conditions.

Because life and consciousness cannot manifest one without the other, they are essentially the same. To be without thought is not the blankness of nothingness.

To be without thought is when the totality of consciousness is undifferentiated by thought.

In the dimension of time, which exists within duality, the totality can be considered via thought’s methods, e.g., concepts, comparisons, analogies, and so on.
Life is not a thing with the ability to turn a potentiality into actuality. Life is a state of affair.
Nah!
Aeroplanes were imagined before they were ever built.
Living things, called humans (you might know one or two), imagine all sort of things that never existed, yet through acts of will led to physical acts which brought them into existence. This includes every thing from stone axes to computer systems.
Imagination is a state of potentiality.
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Sculptor
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:33 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:06 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:59 pm
Life is not a thing with the ability to turn a potentiality into actuality. Life is a state of affair.
Nah!
Aeroplanes were imagined before they were ever built.
Living things, called humans (you might know one or two), imagine all sort of things that never existed, yet through acts of will led to physical acts which brought them into existence. This includes every thing from stone axes to computer systems.
Imagination is a state of potentiality.
Er, DUH
yes, and imaginationm which is a state of potential is a phenomenon that living things use to tranform to ACTUALITY.
DO you ever read or understand what you yourself write?
Impenitent
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Impenitent »

Walker wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:45 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:59 pm Life is not a thing with the ability to turn a potentiality into actuality. Life is a state of affair.
Buildings don't just suddenly appear like toadstools in the forest.

First they are infinite potentiality. Then they are thoughts. Then they are buildings.

The life/consciousness duality is the cause of buildings appearing.
toads didn't build those, nor do they sit upon them...

they are alive as well...

-Imp
Walker
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Walker »

Impenitent wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:11 am
toads didn't build those, nor do they sit upon them...

they are alive as well...

-Imp
That’s true.

To be without thought is when the totality of consciousness is undifferentiated by thought.

To be with thought is when the totality of consciousness is differentiated by thought into an ordered hierarchy oriented towards survival, into distinctions such as house building.

The question thus becomes, how does a non-thinking animal, at least a non-higher order thinking animal, build a home? It usually digs a hole or finds a hole, and instinct handles that.
Dimebag
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Dimebag »

bahman wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:59 pm
Dimebag wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:08 am
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:08 pm
Of course, We need to perceive in order to cause. But the mere experience cannot cause something else since it is not a thing. It is a state of consciousness.
I never said it was a thing, only that it is part of the material universe, and this is also subject to causality. What I mean by material is, everything that there is. It’s definitely not a thing in the sense of the “external” world, yet, the brain from which it is enmeshed is a “thing”. It is part of the “internal” world, which is an artificial boundary created by the mind itself which is perceiving and creating distinctions between inside and outside.

The way I imagine consciousness is like a bubble within space. Inside the bubble, all the experiences happen. The bubble is still part of the universe, as the universe is all there is, but this bubble has projected impressions of the external world, internally inside this bubble, like a hologram, with impressions from the “external” world, being made at the boundary of that bubble, forming the surfaces from which these internal projections are made.

Because of the holographic nature of consciousness, if you try to find those projections, you will only ever find them on the “outer surface”, or the “mem”-brain. In this way, consciousness is in some way, an illusion, in the same way that a hologram is also illusion, a projection. So in that way, consciousness is both a thing and not a thing. It can only ever be known from inside the bubble, from inside the internal projection, and only ever inferred from the outer boundary-surface conditions on the “brane”.
Consciousness, what you are trying to describe, whether it is correct or not, is a state of affair. It is a mere potentiality. Potentiality cannot on its own lead to actuality, to cause.
No, it cannot, but, the world in a sense primes our brains for action. Additionally, our brains have physical requirements to function, or “drives” which nature has programmed into the body, drives to seek energy, to seek security, to keep the body within specific ranges of temperature, maintenance of fluids, etc. These intrinsic drives, built into the very structure of our body, are also seamlessly integrated with our brains, and which produce seeking behaviours.

Over time, more complex seeking behaviours form, such as the need to communicate with other members of the species, the need to affiliate with a group, the need to be seen in a positive light by that group, the need to post your “status” on social media, so as to receive virtual approval signals in the form of “likes”. You see, our motivational systems are easily hijacked when our basic needs are being met, and so, the brain is already busy enough trying to maintain all these requirements, let alone having to create some uncaused action from thin air (libertarian free will, which you seem to be getting at).

Additionally, culture also affects our motivational systems, making us seek all kinds of useless things deemed popular, which might have been created by marketers, who are also trying to make ends meet and have a particular knack at trying to get us to spend our hard earned dollars on useless things.

Our own genetics already have ideas about what you should be seeking, and will execute those motivations in our brains, via personality predispositions, learning etc.

That’s not to say that there is no difference between volitional and non volitional behaviour, but that’s not restricted by a need to have a causeless cause. Volition is the sense of executing, or wanting to execute a desired behaviour. This can occur with prior causes, and thus, without libertarian free will.
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