Conscious is passive in materialism

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Impenitent
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Impenitent »

Walker wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:28 am
Impenitent wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:11 am
toads didn't build those, nor do they sit upon them...

they are alive as well...

-Imp
That’s true.

To be without thought is when the totality of consciousness is undifferentiated by thought.

To be with thought is when the totality of consciousness is differentiated by thought into an ordered hierarchy oriented towards survival, into distinctions such as house building.

The question thus becomes, how does a non-thinking animal, at least a non-higher order thinking animal, build a home? It usually digs a hole or finds a hole, and instinct handles that.
instinctually yes

-Imp
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

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Sculptor wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:53 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:33 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:06 pm

Nah!
Aeroplanes were imagined before they were ever built.
Living things, called humans (you might know one or two), imagine all sort of things that never existed, yet through acts of will led to physical acts which brought them into existence. This includes every thing from stone axes to computer systems.
Imagination is a state of potentiality.
Er, DUH
yes, and imaginationm which is a state of potential is a phenomenon that living things use to tranform to ACTUALITY.
DO you ever read or understand what you yourself write?
The question is how this state of potentiality, the experience, turns into actuality.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by bahman »

Dimebag wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:35 am
bahman wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:59 pm
Dimebag wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:08 am
I never said it was a thing, only that it is part of the material universe, and this is also subject to causality. What I mean by material is, everything that there is. It’s definitely not a thing in the sense of the “external” world, yet, the brain from which it is enmeshed is a “thing”. It is part of the “internal” world, which is an artificial boundary created by the mind itself which is perceiving and creating distinctions between inside and outside.

The way I imagine consciousness is like a bubble within space. Inside the bubble, all the experiences happen. The bubble is still part of the universe, as the universe is all there is, but this bubble has projected impressions of the external world, internally inside this bubble, like a hologram, with impressions from the “external” world, being made at the boundary of that bubble, forming the surfaces from which these internal projections are made.

Because of the holographic nature of consciousness, if you try to find those projections, you will only ever find them on the “outer surface”, or the “mem”-brain. In this way, consciousness is in some way, an illusion, in the same way that a hologram is also illusion, a projection. So in that way, consciousness is both a thing and not a thing. It can only ever be known from inside the bubble, from inside the internal projection, and only ever inferred from the outer boundary-surface conditions on the “brane”.
Consciousness, what you are trying to describe, whether it is correct or not, is a state of affair. It is a mere potentiality. Potentiality cannot on its own lead to actuality, to cause.
No, it cannot,...
So, you agree with me on the fact that conscious state cannot turn into causation?
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Sculptor
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:32 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:53 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:33 pm
Imagination is a state of potentiality.
Er, DUH
yes, and imaginationm which is a state of potential is a phenomenon that living things use to tranform to ACTUALITY.
DO you ever read or understand what you yourself write?
The question is how this state of potentiality, the experience, turns into actuality.
So now you are taking back what you said.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:17 am
bahman wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:32 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:53 pm
Er, DUH
yes, and imaginationm which is a state of potential is a phenomenon that living things use to tranform to ACTUALITY.
DO you ever read or understand what you yourself write?
The question is how this state of potentiality, the experience, turns into actuality.
So now you are taking back what you said.
No.
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Sculptor
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:21 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:17 am
bahman wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:32 pm
The question is how this state of potentiality, the experience, turns into actuality.
So now you are taking back what you said.
No.
Then you are confused.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:44 am
bahman wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:21 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:17 am

So now you are taking back what you said.
No.
Then you are confused.
I am not. AS I said the conscious state is a potential state and cannot on its own turn into an actuality.
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Sculptor
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:28 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:44 am
bahman wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:21 pm
No.
Then you are confused.
I am not. AS I said the conscious state is a potential state and cannot on its own turn into an actuality.
You are changing your mind.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:44 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:28 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:44 am
Then you are confused.
I am not. AS I said the conscious state is a potential state and cannot on its own turn into an actuality.
You are changing your mind.
No.
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Sculptor
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:46 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:44 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:28 pm
I am not. AS I said the conscious state is a potential state and cannot on its own turn into an actuality.
You are changing your mind.
No.
You are still wrong
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:49 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:46 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:44 pm

You are changing your mind.
No.
You are still wrong
No. Can you tell me how the conscious state that is mere potentiality can turn into actuality?
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Sculptor
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:17 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:49 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:46 pm
No.
You are still wrong
No. Can you tell me how the conscious state that is mere potentiality can turn into actuality?
There is a lie in your question.
The conscious state is a physical state of the cerebrum, it enact motions in the body; speech, movements and more thoughts. As a conscious state is already actual, it leads to more actual actions.
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bahman
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:21 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:17 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:49 pm
You are still wrong
No. Can you tell me how the conscious state that is mere potentiality can turn into actuality?
There is a lie in your question.
The conscious state is a physical state of the cerebrum, it enact motions in the body; speech, movements and more thoughts. As a conscious state is already actual, it leads to more actual actions.
So, you pick up a piece of chocolate every time you see one?
SteveKlinko
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by SteveKlinko »

bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:27 pm Materialists argue that consciousness is the result of matter activity, neurons firing, but if that was true then consciousness is passive since it is the result of something else therefore it cannot cause something else. You need something else which take this potentiality and gives new actuality to it.
Yes, the Materialist/Phyisicalist view completely obliterates any concept of Volition. They cannot Explain how Neurons can Desire to do anything.
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Sculptor
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Re: Conscious is passive in materialism

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:20 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:21 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:17 pm
No. Can you tell me how the conscious state that is mere potentiality can turn into actuality?
There is a lie in your question.
The conscious state is a physical state of the cerebrum, it enact motions in the body; speech, movements and more thoughts. As a conscious state is already actual, it leads to more actual actions.
So, you pick up a piece of chocolate every time you see one?
Why do you ask?
Not picking up chocolate is also an action.
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