Re: The observer cannot be observed
Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:59 pm
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Yes it is.
So if the Self receives Volition or Intention from somewhere else then where is that somewhere else? What is generating our Volitional urges?Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:58 pmI’ll put it another way, volition uses you, awareness. But when the self concept receives volitional signals of intention, it takes those as being produced by it. As I mentioned on the tree of identification, if an action aligns with the goals of the particular branch you are identifying with, it will be perceived as intentional.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:25 pmBecause this is the way it appears to me. I do not sense that I am just a passive Observer of my Volition. You could be right but I don't see it. Maybe you believe you have given all the possible evidence, for lets call it Zombie Volition, but I am not yet convinced.
But, furthermore, even acts which might not align with the goals of identity will be adopted by it, and the function of the brain known as the narrator (or something similar) which creates stories to justify the self, will make you think you intended to do something you didn’t.
Awareness is essentially a kind of passive resource. It’s like a container which is used to store experiences and allow other parts of the brain to access that information.
The answer is the same ''What'' that is growing the grass.
All we know is we don't know. It's an unavoidable oxymoron.
My answer, all your predispositions, unconscious biases, behaviour patterns, personality traits, etc. All of that is beyond your control and determines the choices you “make”.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:45 pmSo if the Self receives Volition or Intention from somewhere else then where is that somewhere else? What is generating our Volitional urges?Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:58 pmI’ll put it another way, volition uses you, awareness. But when the self concept receives volitional signals of intention, it takes those as being produced by it. As I mentioned on the tree of identification, if an action aligns with the goals of the particular branch you are identifying with, it will be perceived as intentional.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:25 pm
Because this is the way it appears to me. I do not sense that I am just a passive Observer of my Volition. You could be right but I don't see it. Maybe you believe you have given all the possible evidence, for lets call it Zombie Volition, but I am not yet convinced.
But, furthermore, even acts which might not align with the goals of identity will be adopted by it, and the function of the brain known as the narrator (or something similar) which creates stories to justify the self, will make you think you intended to do something you didn’t.
Awareness is essentially a kind of passive resource. It’s like a container which is used to store experiences and allow other parts of the brain to access that information.
But then are you saying that we actually make a Volitional Choice from the Choices? Or is the act of Choosing not even under our Volitional control?Dimebag wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:20 pmMy answer, all your predispositions, unconscious biases, behaviour patterns, personality traits, etc. All of that is beyond your control and determines the choices you “make”.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:45 pmSo if the Self receives Volition or Intention from somewhere else then where is that somewhere else? What is generating our Volitional urges?Dimebag wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:58 pm
I’ll put it another way, volition uses you, awareness. But when the self concept receives volitional signals of intention, it takes those as being produced by it. As I mentioned on the tree of identification, if an action aligns with the goals of the particular branch you are identifying with, it will be perceived as intentional.
But, furthermore, even acts which might not align with the goals of identity will be adopted by it, and the function of the brain known as the narrator (or something similar) which creates stories to justify the self, will make you think you intended to do something you didn’t.
Awareness is essentially a kind of passive resource. It’s like a container which is used to store experiences and allow other parts of the brain to access that information.
It’s more like your choices make you.
You have an urge to get some food from the fridge, you didn’t create this urge, before you know it you are doing it, but because the action cued in the motor cortex, felt as volition, is justified by the interpreter system as “I’m hungry, I think I’ll get something to eat, awareness is merged with the sense of volition from the motor cortex, with the explanatory phrase, and it feels like it was its doing.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:47 pmBut then are you saying that we actually make a Volitional Choice from the Choices? Or is the act of Choosing not even under our Volitional control?Dimebag wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:20 pmMy answer, all your predispositions, unconscious biases, behaviour patterns, personality traits, etc. All of that is beyond your control and determines the choices you “make”.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:45 pm
So if the Self receives Volition or Intention from somewhere else then where is that somewhere else? What is generating our Volitional urges?
It’s more like your choices make you.
The Urges that the Self Experiences are one thing, but the actual Volitional mechanism that can project movement out into the Physical World to satisfy the chosen Urge is another aspect of the Self. Urges in and of themselves do not get the Volitional job done. There is a whole Volitional aspect of the Self that does that.Dimebag wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:40 pmYou have an urge to get some food from the fridge, you didn’t create this urge, before you know it you are doing it, but because the action cued in the motor cortex, felt as volition, is justified by the interpreter system as “I’m hungry, I think I’ll get something to eat, awareness is merged with the sense of volition from the motor cortex, with the explanatory phrase, and it feels like it was its doing.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:47 pmBut then are you saying that we actually make a Volitional Choice from the Choices? Or is the act of Choosing not even under our Volitional control?
If awareness could somehow become more detached, it would notice all these things arising without any input from it.
We take responsibility for all the stuff that bubbles up, because we identify with our urges.
Even when you are writing for instance, the words come “through” you, as if from somewhere else. They are not your doing. You watch as it unfolds, but, you are identified with the body performing the movements, and the stream of thoughts arising in the mind being converted to print.
The point is no action is ever taken without the intent ..so the automated hunger is what drives any intent to react or not react to the hunger. A Reaction is not the action of a personal doer separate from the doing. All action as in bodily functions are Acausal, whereas reactions are caused, in this case by the automated hunger.henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:35 pm
I'm hungry...I consider my options (which include not eating...I act
the only automated event is the hunger: everything else is intent & will (me)
Decision is not your experience either, you observe the experience of decision , you do not experience an experience. There are here only reactions, not actions.henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:12 pm The point is no action is ever taken without the intent ..so the automated hunger is what drives any intent to react or not react to the hunger.
yep, that's what I said: I get hungry and I decide what to do about it
...you'll notice that you won't know the exact moment the choice began or ended...
that's not my experience, no