The observer cannot be observed

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dimebag
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dimebag »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:45 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:25 pm lets call it Zombie Volition
If you are not convinced, then what word would you like to use instead of 'Zombie' ?
I think passive is a good word.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

Dimebag wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:59 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:45 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:25 pm lets call it Zombie Volition
If you are not convinced, then what word would you like to use instead of 'Zombie' ?
I think passive is a good word.
Yes it is.

To know 'Volition' is a reactionary knowledge arising from what is always a unitary action happening to no one. In other words to know is to become aware of action. And to know no one is this Awareness, and that there is only this Impersonal empty Awareness embodied within the action, and that the actionman is the 'looked upon' aka (the observed) and not the observer, for the observer is NEVER seen, but can only BE...and this pure empty being is where the concept 'being' is immediately KNOWN...but it's a transient thing, a walk on, aka a fictional character appearing real.

.

We are taught from birth that all things known are ''literal'' .... but the opposite is also true, and we're not taught that.

We're not told that knowledge is really fictional, and that words are actually just empty meaning imposed upon nothingness.

But the human story is very convincing because it's been programmed that way. For example: I am the doer because knowledge informs of such action, and that knowledge is very convincing, for without it, nothing is happening.

Knowledge comes from the same (nothing is happening) to appear very convincingly as (something is happening) Hardly ever is it figured out that knowledge can only ever point to the illusory nature of reality, because belief aka the mind is a very powerful thing, it turns what is not actually happening into a very convincing happening show...albeit illusory.

Yada yada, blah blah blah :D
SteveKlinko
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by SteveKlinko »

Dimebag wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:58 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:25 pm
Dimebag wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:59 pm
Yes, I understand this. But what makes you think you choose what you want to do as opposed to choices appearing to and in you?
Because this is the way it appears to me. I do not sense that I am just a passive Observer of my Volition. You could be right but I don't see it. Maybe you believe you have given all the possible evidence, for lets call it Zombie Volition, but I am not yet convinced.
I’ll put it another way, volition uses you, awareness. But when the self concept receives volitional signals of intention, it takes those as being produced by it. As I mentioned on the tree of identification, if an action aligns with the goals of the particular branch you are identifying with, it will be perceived as intentional.

But, furthermore, even acts which might not align with the goals of identity will be adopted by it, and the function of the brain known as the narrator (or something similar) which creates stories to justify the self, will make you think you intended to do something you didn’t.

Awareness is essentially a kind of passive resource. It’s like a container which is used to store experiences and allow other parts of the brain to access that information.
So if the Self receives Volition or Intention from somewhere else then where is that somewhere else? What is generating our Volitional urges?
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Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:45 pmWhat is generating our Volitional urges?
The answer is the same ''What'' that is growing the grass.
Belinda
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Belinda »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:41 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:45 pmWhat is generating our Volitional urges?
The answer is the same ''What'' that is growing the grass.
8) :idea:
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Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:49 am
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:41 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:45 pmWhat is generating our Volitional urges?
The answer is the same ''What'' that is growing the grass.
8) :idea:
All we know is we don't know. It's an unavoidable oxymoron.

All those morons who claim they know are just useful idiots, unfortunately, there's one born every minute.

.
Dimebag
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dimebag »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:45 pm
Dimebag wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:58 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:25 pm

Because this is the way it appears to me. I do not sense that I am just a passive Observer of my Volition. You could be right but I don't see it. Maybe you believe you have given all the possible evidence, for lets call it Zombie Volition, but I am not yet convinced.
I’ll put it another way, volition uses you, awareness. But when the self concept receives volitional signals of intention, it takes those as being produced by it. As I mentioned on the tree of identification, if an action aligns with the goals of the particular branch you are identifying with, it will be perceived as intentional.

But, furthermore, even acts which might not align with the goals of identity will be adopted by it, and the function of the brain known as the narrator (or something similar) which creates stories to justify the self, will make you think you intended to do something you didn’t.

Awareness is essentially a kind of passive resource. It’s like a container which is used to store experiences and allow other parts of the brain to access that information.
So if the Self receives Volition or Intention from somewhere else then where is that somewhere else? What is generating our Volitional urges?
My answer, all your predispositions, unconscious biases, behaviour patterns, personality traits, etc. All of that is beyond your control and determines the choices you “make”.

It’s more like your choices make you.
SteveKlinko
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by SteveKlinko »

Dimebag wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:20 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:45 pm
Dimebag wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:58 pm
I’ll put it another way, volition uses you, awareness. But when the self concept receives volitional signals of intention, it takes those as being produced by it. As I mentioned on the tree of identification, if an action aligns with the goals of the particular branch you are identifying with, it will be perceived as intentional.

But, furthermore, even acts which might not align with the goals of identity will be adopted by it, and the function of the brain known as the narrator (or something similar) which creates stories to justify the self, will make you think you intended to do something you didn’t.

Awareness is essentially a kind of passive resource. It’s like a container which is used to store experiences and allow other parts of the brain to access that information.
So if the Self receives Volition or Intention from somewhere else then where is that somewhere else? What is generating our Volitional urges?
My answer, all your predispositions, unconscious biases, behaviour patterns, personality traits, etc. All of that is beyond your control and determines the choices you “make”.

It’s more like your choices make you.
But then are you saying that we actually make a Volitional Choice from the Choices? Or is the act of Choosing not even under our Volitional control?
Dimebag
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dimebag »

SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:47 pm
Dimebag wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:20 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:45 pm
So if the Self receives Volition or Intention from somewhere else then where is that somewhere else? What is generating our Volitional urges?
My answer, all your predispositions, unconscious biases, behaviour patterns, personality traits, etc. All of that is beyond your control and determines the choices you “make”.

It’s more like your choices make you.
But then are you saying that we actually make a Volitional Choice from the Choices? Or is the act of Choosing not even under our Volitional control?
You have an urge to get some food from the fridge, you didn’t create this urge, before you know it you are doing it, but because the action cued in the motor cortex, felt as volition, is justified by the interpreter system as “I’m hungry, I think I’ll get something to eat, awareness is merged with the sense of volition from the motor cortex, with the explanatory phrase, and it feels like it was its doing.

If awareness could somehow become more detached, it would notice all these things arising without any input from it.

We take responsibility for all the stuff that bubbles up, because we identify with our urges.

Even when you are writing for instance, the words come “through” you, as if from somewhere else. They are not your doing. You watch as it unfolds, but, you are identified with the body performing the movements, and the stream of thoughts arising in the mind being converted to print.
SteveKlinko
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by SteveKlinko »

Dimebag wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:40 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:47 pm
Dimebag wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:20 pm
My answer, all your predispositions, unconscious biases, behaviour patterns, personality traits, etc. All of that is beyond your control and determines the choices you “make”.

It’s more like your choices make you.
But then are you saying that we actually make a Volitional Choice from the Choices? Or is the act of Choosing not even under our Volitional control?
You have an urge to get some food from the fridge, you didn’t create this urge, before you know it you are doing it, but because the action cued in the motor cortex, felt as volition, is justified by the interpreter system as “I’m hungry, I think I’ll get something to eat, awareness is merged with the sense of volition from the motor cortex, with the explanatory phrase, and it feels like it was its doing.

If awareness could somehow become more detached, it would notice all these things arising without any input from it.

We take responsibility for all the stuff that bubbles up, because we identify with our urges.

Even when you are writing for instance, the words come “through” you, as if from somewhere else. They are not your doing. You watch as it unfolds, but, you are identified with the body performing the movements, and the stream of thoughts arising in the mind being converted to print.
The Urges that the Self Experiences are one thing, but the actual Volitional mechanism that can project movement out into the Physical World to satisfy the chosen Urge is another aspect of the Self. Urges in and of themselves do not get the Volitional job done. There is a whole Volitional aspect of the Self that does that.
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henry quirk
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by henry quirk »

You have an urge to get some food from the fridge, you didn’t create this urge, before you know it you are doing it, but because the action cued in the motor cortex, felt as volition, is justified by the interpreter system as “I’m hungry, I think I’ll get something to eat, awareness is merged with the sense of volition from the motor cortex, with the explanatory phrase, and it feels like it was its doing.

I'm hungry...I consider my options (which include not eating...I act

the only automated event is the hunger: everything else is intent & will (me)
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Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:35 pm
I'm hungry...I consider my options (which include not eating...I act

the only automated event is the hunger: everything else is intent & will (me)
The point is no action is ever taken without the intent ..so the automated hunger is what drives any intent to react or not react to the hunger. A Reaction is not the action of a personal doer separate from the doing. All action as in bodily functions are Acausal, whereas reactions are caused, in this case by the automated hunger.

Yer still left with the infinite regress phenomena...similarly, every thought that arises does so because it was triggered by the preceding thought, all quite predictive in a sense, it's almost like there is an endless thought stream a happening that goes unnoticed, simply because thoughts cannot be seen.

So it's not a 'me' entity that makes a choice, it's a thought...the 'me' is also a thought.

Also, just stop and think about a choice for a minute :idea: ..when does a 'made choice' begin and end that you can be aware of, you'll notice that you won't know the exact moment the choice began or ended will you, because living organisms operate as one seamless unitary action.

You are only observing reality, you are not an observed object in it.
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henry quirk
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by henry quirk »

The point is no action is ever taken without the intent ..so the automated hunger is what drives any intent to react or not react to the hunger.

yep, that's what I said: I get hungry and I decide what to do about it


...you'll notice that you won't know the exact moment the choice began or ended...

that's not my experience, no
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Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:12 pm The point is no action is ever taken without the intent ..so the automated hunger is what drives any intent to react or not react to the hunger.

yep, that's what I said: I get hungry and I decide what to do about it


...you'll notice that you won't know the exact moment the choice began or ended...

that's not my experience, no
Decision is not your experience either, you observe the experience of decision , you do not experience an experience. There are here only reactions, not actions.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

Proof the observer cannot be observed.


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