The observer cannot be observed

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dontaskme
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The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

You are what observes, not what is being observed.

What is observing cannot be observed because nothing is observing appearing as something.

No some thing has ever been observed, all things are empty concepts.

.
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henry quirk
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by henry quirk »

mirror, mirror, on the wall...
Impenitent
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hey mannie... lookie here

Post by Impenitent »

mirror mirror shows the phenomena, not the noumena

-Imp
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henry quirk
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Re: hey mannie... lookie here

Post by henry quirk »

Impenitent wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:43 pm mirror mirror shows the phenomena, not the noumena

-Imp
If that's true, then we never, directly or indirectly, see anything.

Bein' a *direct realist: I disagree with that.









*or naive, if you prefer
Impenitent
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Impenitent »

depends on the size of your brackets...

-Imp
Dimebag
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dimebag »

The observer is that in which observations arise, so the observer is not separate from that which it observes, yet the observer conceptualises itself as separate from its observations, and so creates its own identity. But all there really is is observing. It’s the heart of all suffering.
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Dontaskme
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Re: hey mannie... lookie here

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:11 pm
Impenitent wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:43 pm mirror mirror shows the phenomena, not the noumena

-Imp
If that's true, then we never, directly or indirectly, see anything.

Bein' a *direct realist: I disagree with that.









*or naive, if you prefer
That which apparently sees a thing ..itself cannot be seen...there is no thing seeing.

It’s a trickless trick...an illusion of sorts just like every other hallucination.
Dimebag
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dimebag »

The observer seems like a mode of being created by experience feeding back on itself through memory, which creates the sense of a self.

Like the Ouroboros, the snake chasing its tail. Eventually if you keep your attention on your self enough, you can catch your own seeing, through memory, it’s like catching your own scent. You don’t directly see yourself, only your wake, and the imprint you leave, and thus you infer your own existence.

But the problem is, you are awareness, and the imprint awareness leaves is nothing, so if what you are observing is stillness, or the sense of space, you might be on your trail, but even these are subtle observations, not to be confused with what you really are, which is awareness. Sometimes, if you observe that these subtle observations are absent and instead there is discomfort, you can begin to think that you have lost your “self”, yet it’s just that this self is being covered up and has been sucked back in to its own story. It doesn’t realise it’s all a play on a screen.

By observing, you realise that everything that is observed appears as if on a screen. Then you realise that if there is a screen, there must be something or someone watching the screen, and you take this observer to be you, not realising that you are the screen and the play on it.

Or, you can see observations as clouds, and the screen is the sky. From the ground you see only clouds and no sky, but when it’s seen that there are clouds obscuring a sky, it’s realised that the sky is always there. When this is realised and all the clouds pass, the sky is clear and you can realise that you are the sky, with a sense of vast space. Then when clouds return, there is nothing to worry about. When you know your sky nature, no clouds can bother you.
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henry quirk
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the observer can be observed, by himself, and by others

Post by henry quirk »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:30 am
henry quirk wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:11 pm
Impenitent wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:43 pm mirror mirror shows the phenomena, not the noumena

-Imp
If that's true, then we never, directly or indirectly, see anything.

Bein' a *direct realist: I disagree with that.









*or naive, if you prefer
That which apparently sees a thing ..itself cannot be seen...there is no thing seeing.

It’s a trickless trick...an illusion of sorts just like every other hallucination.
If my kid looks at me: he sees me.

If I look at myself in a mirror: I see me (in reverse).

The same information-bearing light that enters my kid's eye, enters mine.
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Dontaskme
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Re: the observer can be observed, by himself, and by others

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:09 am
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:30 am
henry quirk wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:11 pm

If that's true, then we never, directly or indirectly, see anything.

Bein' a *direct realist: I disagree with that.









*or naive, if you prefer
That which apparently sees a thing ..itself cannot be seen...there is no thing seeing.

It’s a trickless trick...an illusion of sorts just like every other hallucination.
If my kid looks at me: he sees me.

If I look at myself in a mirror: I see me (in reverse).

The same information-bearing light that enters my kid's eye, enters mine.
There is only the light observing itself .its all just light which is not a thing and everything..When there is nothing to observe, when there is only the observer left, then the observer itself becomes the observed – because there is nothing else to observe. The knower simply knows itself. The seer sees himself. It’s self illuminating..there is no other seer except as a thought objectified.The energy that was going towards objects, thoughts… there are no thoughts, no objects. The energy has no way to go anywhere; it simply becomes a light unto itself. There is nothing that it lights, it lights only itself – a flame surrounded by silence, surrounded by nothingness.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

According to mysticism, existence and experience is divided into three parts: the known, the unknown, and the unknowable. The known was unknown one day, the unknown will become known one day, but the unknowable will remain unknowable; it will remain mysterious. Whatever you do, the mystery will always surround existence. The mystery will always be there around life, around love, around meditation.

The mystery cannot be destroyed.

Oneness is and will always remain a mystery...there is nothing outside of oneness that can reveal the mystery of itself....that’s the general point being made here...This ONENESS which is known only to itself, remains unknowable to any other source outside itself...
There simply is no other.


How can ONENESS be?

No thing will ever know...because things are known by this mysterious unknowable knowing oneness.


Things are not seen...things are only KNOWN by this unknowable knowing ...aka the observer.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Dontaskme »

Dimebag wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:30 am The observer seems like a mode of being created by experience feeding back on itself through memory, which creates the sense of a self.

Like the Ouroboros, the snake chasing its tail. Eventually if you keep your attention on your self enough, you can catch your own seeing, through memory, it’s like catching your own scent. You don’t directly see yourself, only your wake, and the imprint you leave, and thus you infer your own existence.

But the problem is, you are awareness, and the imprint awareness leaves is nothing, so if what you are observing is stillness, or the sense of space, you might be on your trail, but even these are subtle observations, not to be confused with what you really are, which is awareness. Sometimes, if you observe that these subtle observations are absent and instead there is discomfort, you can begin to think that you have lost your “self”, yet it’s just that this self is being covered up and has been sucked back in to its own story. It doesn’t realise it’s all a play on a screen.

By observing, you realise that everything that is observed appears as if on a screen. Then you realise that if there is a screen, there must be something or someone watching the screen, and you take this observer to be you, not realising that you are the screen and the play on it.

Or, you can see observations as clouds, and the screen is the sky. From the ground you see only clouds and no sky, but when it’s seen that there are clouds obscuring a sky, it’s realised that the sky is always there. When this is realised and all the clouds pass, the sky is clear and you can realise that you are the sky, with a sense of vast space. Then when clouds return, there is nothing to worry about. When you know your sky nature, no clouds can bother you.
Very well said.
AlexW
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by AlexW »

Dimebag wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:30 am But the problem is, you are awareness, and the imprint awareness leaves is nothing, so if what you are observing is stillness, or the sense of space, you might be on your trail, but even these are subtle observations, not to be confused with what you really are, which is awareness.
I like what you said, nice post!
Only thing I would question is the imprint „left behind“... as I see it this imprint is not nothing, it is thought, memory to be more accurate. The more awareness is focussed on thought, the more footsteps it will leave behind in the snow on the path travelled.
This doesn’t mean that these imprints are what you truely are, they are what you left behind and what will eventually be considered to be the individual person.
The person is like these footprints in the snow, it is the past, only awareness stands here/now.
Skepdick
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by Skepdick »

"The observer" is observed.

Else you wouldn't speak about it.
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henry quirk
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Re: The observer cannot be observed

Post by henry quirk »

There is only the light observing itself

light is the carrier of info: I'm the observer & observed (just like you and him and her...)
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