An argument against materialism

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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An argument against materialism

Post by bahman »

All particles in the universe are interacting with each other. This means that we have one process. Materialism claims that consciousness is the result of process in matter. Therefore there should be one consciousness. There are more than one consciousness. Therefore materialism is false.
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Re: An argument against materialism

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how do you know there is more than one?

-Imp
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bahman
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Re: An argument against materialism

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Impenitent wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:35 pm how do you know there is more than one?

-Imp
Because you need conscious mind for any change. There are changes that my conscious mind are not caused. Therefore, there are at least two minds. Me and a Demon, you. :mrgreen:
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Re: An argument against materialism

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bahman wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:56 pm
Impenitent wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:35 pm how do you know there is more than one?

-Imp
Because you need conscious mind for any change. There are changes that my conscious mind are not caused. Therefore, there are at least two minds. Me and a Demon, you. :mrgreen:
if you say so, you and i (or me and me) have spoken about this last week.

carry on.
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Re: An argument against materialism

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bahman wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:10 pm All particles in the universe are interacting with each other. This means that we have one process. Materialism claims that consciousness is the result of process in matter. Therefore there should be one consciousness. There are more than one consciousness. Therefore materialism is false.
Materialism doesn’t really understand consciousness.
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Re: An argument against materialism

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bahman wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:10 pmMaterialism claims that consciousness is the result of process in matter.
I'm a materialist. Only the material exists ontologically, but material includes everything that exists and has the nature it has independently of anyone's knowledge or consciousness of that existence, and therefore includes all physical entities, all living entities (organisms), all conscious entities (animals), and all intellectually/volitionally conscious animals (human beings). Life, consciousness, and mind are attribute of material existence, just as all the physical properties are attributes of material existence. Life, consciousness, and mind are as natural as all the physical properties but are only properties of some physical entities.

No physical process produces or causes life, the life property makes physical life processes possible. No living process produces consciousness, the consciousness property makes the consciousness of living organisms possible. No consciousness process produces mind, it is the mental properties of volition, intellect, and rationality that makes the minds of conscious organisms possible.

Your premise is wrong.
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Re: An argument against materialism

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RCSaunders wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:55 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:10 pmMaterialism claims that consciousness is the result of process in matter.
I'm a materialist. Only the material exists ontologically, but material includes everything that exists and has the nature it has independently of anyone's knowledge or consciousness of that existence, and therefore includes all physical entities, all living entities (organisms), all conscious entities (animals), and all intellectually/volitionally conscious animals (human beings). Life, consciousness, and mind are attribute of material existence, just as all the physical properties are attributes of material existence. Life, consciousness, and mind are as natural as all the physical properties but are only properties of some physical entities.

No physical process produces or causes life, the life property makes physical life processes possible. No living process produces consciousness, the consciousness property makes the consciousness of living organisms possible. No consciousness process produces mind, it is the mental properties of volition, intellect, and rationality that makes the minds of conscious organisms possible.

Your premise is wrong.
You can say that Mental Properties are purely Material but it is not a very satisfying proposition when it comes to simple sensory Experiences, like the Sight of Red, the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, the Touch of a rough surface. These things have no Material Explanation. They are purely Conscious Experiences in the Mind. The existence of these Sensory Experiences or Sensations, if you like, is the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
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Re: An argument against materialism

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RCSaunders wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:55 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:10 pmMaterialism claims that consciousness is the result of process in matter.
I'm a materialist. Only the material exists ontologically, but material includes everything that exists and has the nature it has independently of anyone's knowledge or consciousness of that existence, and therefore includes all physical entities, all living entities (organisms), all conscious entities (animals), and all intellectually/volitionally conscious animals (human beings). Life, consciousness, and mind are attribute of material existence, just as all the physical properties are attributes of material existence. Life, consciousness, and mind are as natural as all the physical properties but are only properties of some physical entities.

No physical process produces or causes life, the life property makes physical life processes possible. No living process produces consciousness, the consciousness property makes the consciousness of living organisms possible. No consciousness process produces mind, it is the mental properties of volition, intellect, and rationality that makes the minds of conscious organisms possible.

Your premise is wrong.
Are you a property dualist? Do you believe that matter in all its form is conscious?
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Re: An argument against materialism

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SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:54 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:55 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:10 pmMaterialism claims that consciousness is the result of process in matter.
I'm a materialist. Only the material exists ontologically, but material includes everything that exists and has the nature it has independently of anyone's knowledge or consciousness of that existence, and therefore includes all physical entities, all living entities (organisms), all conscious entities (animals), and all intellectually/volitionally conscious animals (human beings). Life, consciousness, and mind are attribute of material existence, just as all the physical properties are attributes of material existence. Life, consciousness, and mind are as natural as all the physical properties but are only properties of some physical entities.

No physical process produces or causes life, the life property makes physical life processes possible. No living process produces consciousness, the consciousness property makes the consciousness of living organisms possible. No consciousness process produces mind, it is the mental properties of volition, intellect, and rationality that makes the minds of conscious organisms possible.

Your premise is wrong.
You can say that Mental Properties are purely Material but it is not a very satisfying proposition when it comes to simple sensory Experiences, like the Sight of Red, the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, the Touch of a rough surface. These things have no Material Explanation. They are purely Conscious Experiences in the Mind. The existence of these Sensory Experiences or Sensations, if you like, is the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
Yes, there is no such a thing as smell, taste, or color, etc. in matter.
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bahman
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Re: An argument against materialism

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gaffo wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:25 am
bahman wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:56 pm
Impenitent wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:35 pm how do you know there is more than one?

-Imp
Because you need conscious mind for any change. There are changes that my conscious mind are not caused. Therefore, there are at least two minds. Me and a Demon, you. :mrgreen:
if you say so, you and i (or me and me) have spoken about this last week.

carry on.
What do you mean with me and me? You cannot be unaware of changes in the universe if you cause them.
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RCSaunders
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Re: An argument against materialism

Post by RCSaunders »

bahman wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:17 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:55 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:10 pmMaterialism claims that consciousness is the result of process in matter.
I'm a materialist. Only the material exists ontologically, but material includes everything that exists and has the nature it has independently of anyone's knowledge or consciousness of that existence, and therefore includes all physical entities, all living entities (organisms), all conscious entities (animals), and all intellectually/volitionally conscious animals (human beings). Life, consciousness, and mind are attribute of material existence, just as all the physical properties are attributes of material existence. Life, consciousness, and mind are as natural as all the physical properties but are only properties of some physical entities.

No physical process produces or causes life, the life property makes physical life processes possible. No living process produces consciousness, the consciousness property makes the consciousness of living organisms possible. No consciousness process produces mind, it is the mental properties of volition, intellect, and rationality that makes the minds of conscious organisms possible.

Your premise is wrong.
Are you a property dualist? Do you believe that matter in all its form is conscious?
Neither! I'm not any kind of an, "ist," because I do not accept any philosopher's descriptions of reality. Only living organisms are conscious, but life is just one of the possible attributes of that which exists, just as the physical attributes are, and life does not exist independently of the physical organisms it is the life of.
Last edited by RCSaunders on Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An argument against materialism

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SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:54 pm You can say that Mental Properties are purely Material but it is not a very satisfying proposition when it comes to simple sensory Experiences, like the Sight of Red, the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, the Touch of a rough surface. These things have no Material Explanation. They are purely Conscious Experiences in the Mind. The existence of these Sensory Experiences or Sensations, if you like, is the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
What kind of explanation do you think is needed? If by, "no material explanation," you mean, 'physical explanation," I agree. The physical only includes non-living (dead) entities, which experience nothing, but organisms have additional natural attributes beyond the physical call, "life." Life is not a physical attribute, but it is a material attribute because the material is that which exists and has the nature it has whether anyone is aware of or knows what that existence is or not. Consciousness is also a material attribute, for the same reason life is, which means conscious does have a material explanation.

The only reason consciousness is considered a hard problem is because of the superstitious notion that everything can be explained in terms of physical attributes, a notion as absurd as any other religious belief. It is a flat-out denial of the heart of objective knowledge.
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Re: An argument against materialism

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RCSaunders wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:00 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:54 pm You can say that Mental Properties are purely Material but it is not a very satisfying proposition when it comes to simple sensory Experiences, like the Sight of Red, the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, the Touch of a rough surface. These things have no Material Explanation. They are purely Conscious Experiences in the Mind. The existence of these Sensory Experiences or Sensations, if you like, is the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
What kind of explanation do you think is needed? If by, "no material explanation," you mean, 'physical explanation," I agree. The physical only includes non-living (dead) entities, which experience nothing, but organisms have additional natural attributes beyond the physical call, "life." Life is not a physical attribute, but it is a material attribute because the material is that which exists and has the nature it has whether anyone is aware of or knows what that existence is or not. Consciousness is also a material attribute, for the same reason life is, which means conscious does have a material explanation.

The only reason consciousness is considered a hard problem is because of the superstitious notion that everything can be explained in terms of physical attributes, a notion as absurd as any other religious belief. It is a flat-out denial of the heart of objective knowledge.
Then what is that Material Explanation? There is none, and that's the Hard Problem.
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Re: An argument against materialism

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SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:18 am
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:00 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:54 pm You can say that Mental Properties are purely Material but it is not a very satisfying proposition when it comes to simple sensory Experiences, like the Sight of Red, the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, the Touch of a rough surface. These things have no Material Explanation. They are purely Conscious Experiences in the Mind. The existence of these Sensory Experiences or Sensations, if you like, is the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
What kind of explanation do you think is needed? If by, "no material explanation," you mean, 'physical explanation," I agree. The physical only includes non-living (dead) entities, which experience nothing, but organisms have additional natural attributes beyond the physical call, "life." Life is not a physical attribute, but it is a material attribute because the material is that which exists and has the nature it has whether anyone is aware of or knows what that existence is or not. Consciousness is also a material attribute, for the same reason life is, which means conscious does have a material explanation.

The only reason consciousness is considered a hard problem is because of the superstitious notion that everything can be explained in terms of physical attributes, a notion as absurd as any other religious belief. It is a flat-out denial of the heart of objective knowledge.
Then what is that Material Explanation? There is none, and that's the Hard Problem.
What needs to be explained? Things are what they are, whatever all their attributes, properties, characteristics or qualities are. All physical things, including all living, consciouss, and "mental" things (human beings) all have physical properties like, mass, shape, size, and temperature, but no one says, "what is the material explanation, that is the hard problem," for those properties. They are the material properties. Well there are three more material properties. Life is a material properties of those physical enitites which are organisms. It is the property that makes an organism a living organism, (rather than just a non-living entity) and makes living behavior possible, just as much as the properties of mass, size, shape, and temperature are what makes it a physical entity.

Consciousness is the natural material property that makes it possible for a living, physical, enitity to be conscious? It's not a thing, not a substance, not produced by something else, anymore than an entity's mass is produced by something else. A thing's physical properties no more explain its life and consciousness properties than its mass property explains its shape and size properties.

What exactly needs to be explained? The whole of the so-called, "hard problem," is the attempt to explain something in terms entirely out of context, like attempting to explain a chemical reaction by means of musical notes. Life, consciousness, and mind are not physical properties and not caused by or explainable in terms of physical properties. They are unique natural properties.
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Re: An argument against materialism

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RCSaunders wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:03 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:18 am
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:00 am
What kind of explanation do you think is needed? If by, "no material explanation," you mean, 'physical explanation," I agree. The physical only includes non-living (dead) entities, which experience nothing, but organisms have additional natural attributes beyond the physical call, "life." Life is not a physical attribute, but it is a material attribute because the material is that which exists and has the nature it has whether anyone is aware of or knows what that existence is or not. Consciousness is also a material attribute, for the same reason life is, which means conscious does have a material explanation.

The only reason consciousness is considered a hard problem is because of the superstitious notion that everything can be explained in terms of physical attributes, a notion as absurd as any other religious belief. It is a flat-out denial of the heart of objective knowledge.
Then what is that Material Explanation? There is none, and that's the Hard Problem.
What needs to be explained? Things are what they are, whatever all their attributes, properties, characteristics or qualities are. All physical things, including all living, consciouss, and "mental" things (human beings) all have physical properties like, mass, shape, size, and temperature, but no one says, "what is the material explanation, that is the hard problem," for those properties. They are the material properties. Well there are three more material properties. Life is a material properties of those physical enitites which are organisms. It is the property that makes an organism a living organism, (rather than just a non-living entity) and makes living behavior possible, just as much as the properties of mass, size, shape, and temperature are what makes it a physical entity.

Consciousness is the natural material property that makes it possible for a living, physical, enitity to be conscious? It's not a thing, not a substance, not produced by something else, anymore than an entity's mass is produced by something else. A thing's physical properties no more explain its life and consciousness properties than its mass property explains its shape and size properties.

What exactly needs to be explained? The whole of the so-called, "hard problem," is the attempt to explain something in terms entirely out of context, like attempting to explain a chemical reaction by means of musical notes. Life, consciousness, and mind are not physical properties and not caused by or explainable in terms of physical properties. They are unique natural properties.
Your mistake is insisting that Consciousness is a mere Property of a Material thing. In other views, Consciousness is not a Property of the Material thing itself but rather Consciousness is Connected to the Material thing. Properties can be measured by Science. Conscious Experience cannot be measured by Science. I am primarily interested in Conscious Sensory Experiences. Consider things like the Redness of Red, the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, and the Touch of a Rough Surface. It is Intellectually Lazy to dismissively shrug off these important Conscious Experiences as just some sort of Properties of Something else with no further Explanation being necessary. If that satisfies your sense of curiosity then that's ok. I need more.
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