How are humans different with other species?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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commonsense
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

Post by commonsense »

Impenitent wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:23 pm if we cannot comprehend the space in which we exist... 4d... will the time come when we remember comprehending it?

-Imp
Good one.
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RCSaunders
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

Post by RCSaunders »

Age wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:56 am Human beings are different from all the other species as human beings are the only ones with the ability to learn, understand, and reason, absolutely any, and every, thing.
That's right! Even simpler, human beings are the only organisms that can have and must have knowledge.
Last edited by RCSaunders on Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SteveKlinko
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

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RCSaunders wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:34 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:23 pm Humans will not understand 4D Space because they don't have 4D Brains.
They'll never understand the life of Madusa either. There is no such material existent as 4D space. It is only a concept. Like Madusa.

And, "brains," don't understand anything anyway. They are only the instrument of consciousness and interface between the mind and that which consciousness is conscious of.
I don't know what Madusa is, but there are theories of higher Multi Dimensional Spaces in Cosmological Science. String theories require 10 or more Dimensions. I only want to know about the feasibility of the next higher dimension.

It is irrelevant that Brains understand anything. A Conscious Mind would need the Instrument of a 4D Brain for the Conscious Mind to understand a 4D Universe. A 3D Brain is an insufficient Instrument.
jayjacobus
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

Post by jayjacobus »

Animals are in tune with what they experience in the present and react to present conditions. If an animal sees a strange light in the sky, the animal may be temporarily startled but will go back to doing what it was doing if the light has no immediate effect.

Humans will ponder the light and speculate about its existence and what it portends. UFO? Trick? Natural Phenomenon? Human technology?

Animals will not react to humans intelligently. Fish will often take the bait. Elephants won't flee from humans. Dogs will interact even when they are mistreated. Horses will be horses, wild or trained.

People will react to other people intelligently, not instinctively and not everyone will act the same. A herd of gazelles will all act the same. Animals will be true to their nature and predictable. Humans are difficult to predict (although statistics sheds some imperfect information).
Last edited by jayjacobus on Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sculptor
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

Post by Sculptor »

cicero117 wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 4:13 pm Humans are known to have a consciousness and common sense and traits, these traits are known to be passed down in the DNA.
We get all biological structure from DNA, and so does every other species.
However..
You do not get to understand the Mona Lisa by looking at the chemical composition of paint.
And the 20k or so genes are never going to explain all we do. Reductionism works so far, then you have to allow yourself the luxury of emergent qualities.

But where does that DNA expressed, it's kind of different from other genes in a sense. How can we have a distinct trait and characteristics, some people are denser that the others, etc.
Science has no strict idea of exactly what a gene is. DNA is just a set of four letters in a code book which leads to a human baby. Consciousness is no where near unique to humans, it can be found in different types and expressing itself in many ways throughout the animal kingodom.

I know that according to the Bible, God created man special from the others, we are made according the image of God and are given consciousness.
It's pointless bringing a dusty old book containing ZERO science into this discussion.

But what about what the philosophers think? I haven't delve that deep regarding the philosophy of mind itself and I'm also interested what science can say about this matter.

Pardon me if my questions are all over the place, this is my first thread :)
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

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jayjacobus wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:05 pm Animals are in tune with what they experience in the present and react to present conditions. If an animal sees a strange light in the sky, the animal may be temporarily startled but will go back to doing what it was doing if the light has no immediate effect.

Humans will ponder the light and speculate about its existence and what it portends. UFO? Trick? Natural Phenomenon? Human technology?

Animals will not react to humans intelligently. Fish will often take the bait. Elephants won't flee from humans. Dogs will interact even when they are mistreated. Horses will be horses, wild or trained.

People will react to other people intelligently, not instinctively and not everyone will act the same. A herd of gazelles will all act the same. Animals will be true to their nature and predictable. Humans are difficult to predict (although statistics sheds some imperfect information).
This post is pretty much rubbish from the first word to the last.
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

Post by jayjacobus »

Animals will flee a war zone and some humans will do as well but the human decides to flee or stand and fight.

A soldier will fight a battle thousands of miles from home while his family maintains his home and protects themselves as best they can.

A dog, horse or elephant may go into battle but it's the master's choice.
commonsense
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

Post by commonsense »

The difference between human beings and other species may be a matter of degree rather than one of kind, at least when it comes to knowledge.

For example the 5 W’s and the 1 H. These are things that humans and many animals have knowledge about. Take my domestic dog for instance.

Pogo knows who the alpha leader is. He knows what a toy is. He knows when it is time to eat and when it is time to retire for the night. He knows where his leash is kept. He knows why I pet him. He knows how to heel and how to sit/stay.

Even if limited, Pogo has knowledge beyond the instinctive knowledge that makes him chase geese or bark at a cat.

Wild animals seem to know their alpha leaders are and who their mothers are; what a predator does; when it is time to flee; where water is; why they eat; how they eat.
jayjacobus
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

Post by jayjacobus »

Animals, like humans, make choices but those animal choices are more simplistic and immediate than human choices which can be complex and farsighted. Moreover animals probably don't understand that they make choices. They seem to act without thinking about why they act.
commonsense
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

Post by commonsense »

jayjacobus wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:27 pm Animals, like humans, make choices but those animal choices are more simplistic and immediate than human choices which can be complex and farsighted. Moreover animals probably don't understand that they make choices. They seem to act without thinking about why they act.
I agree. I’m just seeing it as simplicity, and as complexity, of the same type of thing.
Dimebag
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

Post by Dimebag »

SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:11 am
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:34 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:23 pm Humans will not understand 4D Space because they don't have 4D Brains.
They'll never understand the life of Madusa either. There is no such material existent as 4D space. It is only a concept. Like Madusa.

And, "brains," don't understand anything anyway. They are only the instrument of consciousness and interface between the mind and that which consciousness is conscious of.
I don't know what Madusa is, but there are theories of higher Multi Dimensional Spaces in Cosmological Science. String theories require 10 or more Dimensions. I only want to know about the feasibility of the next higher dimension.

It is irrelevant that Brains understand anything. A Conscious Mind would need the Instrument of a 4D Brain for the Conscious Mind to understand a 4D Universe. A 3D Brain is an insufficient Instrument.
Our brains understand 3D space because:

A) our primary sense organs, eyes, are binocular, allowing 3 dimensions to be perceived, conceptualised and acted upon.
B) because it is necessary for survival to understand and be able to operate in 3D space implicitly.

How would any conceptual grasp of 4d space be applied to our current existence in this object based world where it seems the laws of physics demand that these objects in 3d space can only “travel” through 3 dimensions of space?

Maybe we could run an experiment in the future to train a neural network to make “sense” of 4d “visual” space, feed it images of 4d objects transitioning through all 4 spatial dimensions, and if it had an ability to make predictions about how the object could “rotate” in those dimensions, you could say it’s “brain” understands 4d space.

Maybe we could even hack this functioning into a human brain someday, if Elon Musk’s neural link takes off and truly has an ability to interface with our brains in a substantial level and scale.

How it would apply to our 3D world though is beyond me, though I’m sure science would have some use for people who can implicitly understand and “see” 4 dimensional spatial transitions.
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

Post by Sculptor »

Dimebag wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:05 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:11 am
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:34 pm
They'll never understand the life of Madusa either. There is no such material existent as 4D space. It is only a concept. Like Madusa.

And, "brains," don't understand anything anyway. They are only the instrument of consciousness and interface between the mind and that which consciousness is conscious of.
I don't know what Madusa is, but there are theories of higher Multi Dimensional Spaces in Cosmological Science. String theories require 10 or more Dimensions. I only want to know about the feasibility of the next higher dimension.

It is irrelevant that Brains understand anything. A Conscious Mind would need the Instrument of a 4D Brain for the Conscious Mind to understand a 4D Universe. A 3D Brain is an insufficient Instrument.
Our brains understand 3D space because:

A) our primary sense organs, eyes, are binocular, allowing 3 dimensions to be perceived, conceptualised and acted upon.
B) because it is necessary for survival to understand and be able to operate in 3D space implicitly.

How would any conceptual grasp of 4d space be applied to our current existence in this object based world where it seems the laws of physics demand that these objects in 3d space can only “travel” through 3 dimensions of space?

Maybe we could run an experiment in the future to train a neural network to make “sense” of 4d “visual” space, feed it images of 4d objects transitioning through all 4 spatial dimensions, and if it had an ability to make predictions about how the object could “rotate” in those dimensions, you could say it’s “brain” understands 4d space.

Maybe we could even hack this functioning into a human brain someday, if Elon Musk’s neural link takes off and truly has an ability to interface with our brains in a substantial level and scale.

How it would apply to our 3D world though is beyond me, though I’m sure science would have some use for people who can implicitly understand and “see” 4 dimensional spatial transitions.
Space is exhaustively described by the use of three measurements. There is no 4th dimension.
Humans like all mammals see double 2D and infer the 3rd dimension through interpretation.
A one eyed man can only understand the 3rd dimension, but only through experience, and motion.
Age
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

Post by Age »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:58 pm
Age wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:08 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:23 pm
Yes I mean any Human not just you.

Humans will not understand 4D Space because they don't have 4D Brains. Humans only have 3D Brains. We would need to be 32000 times more intelligent. I could be wrong of course. I tried to understand 4D Space for decades. I distilled the whole problem down to understanding how a 3D object is viewed as Flat by a 4D Being. Unless you can experience the Flatness of a 3D object you will not know what 4D Space is like for a 4D Being.
You can repeat here what was written in that link, but you are NOT responding to nor answering the actual clarifying question that I asked you.

What you said here or is said in that link also does NOT back up and support your claim.
I say in the link that in order to understand 4D Space we would need 4D Brains.
YES I KNOW that that is what you say in that link. I also KNOW that what you say here is just what you BELIEVE is true. I also KNOW that it is NOT necessarily true at all.

Is there 4 dimensional space to begin with? And, if there is, then HOW do you KNOW this?
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:58 pm It has to do with being able to visualize a 3D object as looking Flat from the perspective of 4D Space. The fact that I cannot visualize this and I know that no one else I have ever talked to can visualize this leads me to think that you cannot visualize this either.
What you think is also NOT necessarily true at all, either.
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:58 pm I extrapolate this Human Brain deficiency to all Humans.
Extrapolate and do whatever you like. But just remember what you extrapolate is NOT necessarily true at all.
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:58 pm Further thinking on this reveals that if a Human had a 4D Brain he would then have a 3D Flat Cortex similar to our current 2D Cortex. The 3D Cortex would allow visualization of 4D Space.
This is ONE assumption and presumption about what could be.

Also, and by the way, you can re-repeat the EXACT SAME things over and over again, and again, but you are still NOT answering the actual questions I asked you.
Age
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

Post by Age »

SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:12 pm
Age wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:17 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:29 pm

I wrote that, of course.
WHY did you write, "of course"?

How would I KNOW you wrote it?
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:29 pm I do understand 3D so trying to understand 4D is logical.
You have one concept, or one perspective, of 3 dimensional space, relative to your views and definitions. But, if your view of 3 dimensional space is NOT unified with EVERY thing else, then your 'understanding' is NOT necessarily the true nor full understanding.
SteveKlinko wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:29 pm Why would you want to jump to 5D before you understand 4D?
That's not logical.
That was my point. Why is it logical to jump to 'trying to' understand 4 dimensional space or 'trying to' understand absolutely ANY thing that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT even exist, in the beginning?

See, I prefer to just look at what IS, ONLY, instead of 'trying to' look at what might be or what could be.

If you ALREADY, supposedly, understand 3 dimensional space, then you will have ALREADY understood how this works in PERFECTLY with how the Universe actually works.
The current Scientific Cosmological understanding of the Big Bang is that the Universe could have been 2D, 3D, 4D, or 5D, etc.
My POINT, EXACTLY. 4 dimension space, or 5 or more dimensional space, is ONLY a 'COULD BE'. WHY are you 'trying to' understand 4 dimensional space when it may not even exist anyway?

ALSO, the, so called, "current scientific cosmological understanding" of the, so called, "big bang" is just BASED on ASSUMPTIONS, or GUESSES, ONLY.

The 'big bang' itself is just a "theory", which could not even be falsified, nor even verified, anyway.
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:58 pm So I am interested in the next level of complexity above 3D.
But there is NO complexity, let alone a "next level" of complexity.
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:58 pm The important lesson of all this is that Space is a Thing and there could be No Space.
'Space' is just what you define 'it' as being.
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:58 pm I understand 3D Space in the Scientific sense.
Okay, if this is what you believe, then it must be true, correct?
SteveKlinko wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:58 pm I reject your implication that 3D Space can not be understood without considering it's relation to everything else in the Universe.
Did I even actually make that "implication", anyway?

If yes, then SHOW where, and how, I supposedly make that "implication".
Age
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Re: How are humans different with other species?

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:39 pm
Age wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:56 am Human beings are different from all the other species as human beings are the only ones with the ability to learn, understand, and reason, absolutely any, and every, thing.
That's rights! Even simpler, human beings are the only organisms that can have and must have knowledge.
This all depends on how you are defining the word 'knowledge' here.

Do animals have/obtain the 'knowledge' of how to capture their prey, or of how to avoid being captured? Or, is that 'knowing' not 'knowledge'?

Also, why do you say human beings 'must have' knowledge?

Why 'must' human beings have knowledge?
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