RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
Age wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:30 am
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:39 pm
That's rights! Even simpler, human beings are the only organisms that can have and must have knowledge.
This all depends on how you are defining the word 'knowledge' here.
Do animals have/obtain the 'knowledge' of how to capture their prey, or of how to avoid being captured? Or, is that 'knowing' not 'knowledge'?
Also, why do you say human beings 'must have' knowledge?
Why 'must' human beings have knowledge?
What I mean by knowledge is linguistic knowledge.
Using the EXACT SAME word in the definition of the word 'trying to' be defined is NOT helpful in any way, shape, nor form.
So, how are you defining the words 'linguistic knowledge' here, now?
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
The kind of knowledge that makes it possible to ask and answer questions, to think and make choices.
I found that it is 'curiosity', itself, through language, which asks questions, and it is past experiences, through language, which answers questions. That is; the answers provided are depended upon the experiences had in the past.
A language might be needed to ask and answer questions, and might be needed to think. But, to make choices one does NOT need a language.
By the way, when you use the phrase 'linguistic knowledge' do you mean anything more than just language, itself?
If yes, then what is that?
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
It is the kind of knowledge everyone takes for granted when they are teaching their children how to hold their knife and fork, right from left, and where their eyes, ears, nose, and mouth are, and that a I child already has when it can say, "may I have a cookie," which he could not say if he did not know what, "I," "have," and, "cookie," mean, all things which no animal can ever know or be taught.
So, again, is it just the knowledge learned through any particular 'language', which you are referring to here?
By the way, are you SURE a child KNOWS what the 'I' IS when they ask, for example, "May 'I' have a cookie?"
If you are SURE children KNOW what the 'I' means, then WHY have adults NOT YET been able to answer the question, 'Who am 'I'?", properly and correct, even after this question has been around for thousands of years if not for centuries?
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
It is the kind of knowledge that makes it possible to think about what one did yesterday or will do later today or next week.
I would suggest that other animals besides the human animal might well have a language, and thus a 'linguistic knowledge'. For example, when a baby lion 'whimpers', then an mother lion might know that its baby is 'hungry' and thus wants to be 'fed'. Therefore, a type of 'linguistic knowledge' is passed between them. Or, when a playful lion is playing with a sleeping father lion and the elder lion 'roars', then the younger lion might know that it is time to 'stop' doing what it is doing. Therefore, more 'knowledge' being passed from one animal onto another one of its species, through their 'language', or their 'linguistic knowledge'.
But, you may have a completely different definition of the term 'linguistic knowledge', which supports your belief that ONLY human beings have 'linguistic knowledge'. I await for your definition.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
It is that kind of knowledge that human beings cannot live without, but animals do not need and cannot have.
Well I am in TOTAL AGREEMENT that OTHER 'animals' do NOT say things like; "May I have a cookie?" (unless when a parrot has been taught to repeat and say this 'kind of knowledge', themselves), so therefore these OTHER 'animals' do NOT have this, so called, 'kind of knowledge'.
Also, and by the way, how did human beings survive and evolve before when they did NOT have this 'kind of knowledge'?
Or do you think, or believe, that when human beings came into Existence that they also 'instantly' came with 'kind of knowledge', at the moment when they 'instantly' came into Existence?
Also, are you aware that human beings ARE 'an animal'?
If yes, or no, then saying things like; " Humans have 'this', but animals do not need 'this' and cannot have 'this' ", is contradictory, absurd, and nonsensical?
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
Except for human beings, most animals are able to do everything their natures require them to do to live successfully, often within a few hours or days of their birth.
BUT, to me, human beings also are able to EVERY thing their nature requires them to do to live successfully. If this did not occur, then human beings would be doing what is UN-natural.
Human being are NOT 'unnatural', 'above nature', NOR 'beyond nature'. Absolutely EVERY thing human beings do IS 'natural'.
Although, at times, this OBVIOUSLY appears to be completely and utterly NOT True, WRONG, and INCORRECT.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
They are able to walk, run, fly or swim, perform their biological functions, find and acquire the kind of food they must eat, prepare whatever shelter they need, mate and raise their young. Human beings are born unable to do anything their nature requires them to do to live as human beings and it will take years of learning to be able to live as a human being.
The CONTRADICTION of this SPEAKS VOLUMES, well to me anyway.
The VERY 'NATURE' of being 'human' is to be UNABLE to do, accomplish, and achieve things WITHOUT "others".
The VERY REASON of being born so vulnerable and NEEDY of "others" is to HIGHLIGHT the very FACT that the VERY 'NATURE' of being a 'human being' is to care for, protect, and guide "others", ourselves. In other words, the VERY 'NATURE' of being 'human' is to LOVE 'one another' as one's Self.
This is SO, eventually, human beings will live SUCCESSFULLY in peace AND in harmony with one "another", as One.
The very 'nature' of the human being is to work together in order to create and achieve 'that' what is Truly WANTED, by ALL, which is to just create and live in 'world peace'.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
There is nothing your life requires you can have or do without knowledge.
What 'knowledge' where 'you' born with?
You got/received what 'you' required since birth, if not earlier. So, in some sense, you were ABLE to get what 'you' WANTED, and therefore, 'you', from birth, were able to do some thing, the very nature that requires you to do, which is get what 'you' needed, and 'need', in order to get what you Truly WANT, to live, or in your words, 'to live successfully'.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
When you are first born it is not your own knowledge that keeps you alive, fed, clothed, sheltered, and safe from the dangers of life, it is the knowledge of those who choose to love and nurture you, but it is still their knowledge of how to provide those things that make your young life possible.
Okay. If you say so.
Also, how does a baby elephant live, from birth?
Is it from the 'knowledge' that their mothers have obtained, or from some other thing.
Elephants, by the way, do live with their mothers, from birth, for about as long as human beings generally do.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
As you grow older, more and more of the things your life requires will depend on the knowledge you gain as you grow and mature. By the time you are an adult, most of how you live will depend on your own knowledge.
Okay. But what is 'it' exactly, which you are 'trying to' reason/argue for, exactly?
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
Without knowledge no choice would be possible.
So, BEFORE a child obtains 'linguistic knowledge' are you proposing that they ARE 'deterministic' in nature, but AFTER they obtain 'inguistic knowledge', then only then they gain the ability to choose, or in other words; have 'free will'?
Instead of making what I said "even simpler" what appears here now is you have added layers upon layers of explaining to do. I suggested that;
the ability to learn, understand, and reason, absolutely any, and every, thing is what separates the animal 'human being' from every other animal.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
A human being must consciously choose everything, but without knowledge of what there is to choose, what the possible consequences of any choice might be, or why one choice is preferred to another, choice is impossible.
So, to you a human baby who is born deaf and blind, and therefore has not yet obtained 'linguistic knowledge' is NOT able to choose between crawling in 'this' direction from crawling in 'that' direction, correct?
To you, that choice is just IMPOSSIBLE, correct?
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
Knowledge is the means to every choice and the only means to making right ones.
To me, EVERY human being has 'free will' AND IS 'deterministic', by 'nature'. This is ALL pre-determined by the past experiences. Adult human beings are FREE to choose whatever they like, BUT, they can ONLY choose from the thoughts within the head. The pre-existing thoughts is 'knowledge', and this knowledge is depended upon, or determined by, the past experiences of that body.
But knowledge being the means to every choice and the only means to making the right ones has not much at all to do with the fact that it could be argued animals, if not all animals, have some sort of 'knowledge'.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
There is not a single thing a human chooses to do that can be done without knowledge.
Can a human baby choose to roll over to the 'right' instead of the 'left', without necessarily 'knowing' 'right' from 'left', or is this behavior just the very 'nature' of the human being, and it has NO control over this instinctual behavior?
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
From the simplest daily routines of life to the most difficult tasks of one's occupation, every action requires knowledge.
To me, 'action' and 'behavior' are two different things. But we are still a LONG WAY of getting to that 'knowledge' yet.
To say what you have here, then you would need some thing to support how from the instance of human birth your claim that 'EVERY action requires knowledge'.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
By the time we are able to dress ourselves and prepare our own meals the enormous amount of knowledge required to perform such tasks is taken for granted, but none of them could be performed if one did not know left from right or front from back, or how to use a can opener, or what a refrigerator is.
OF COURSE one NEEDS to KNOWLEDGE of 'how to use a can opener' IF they WANT to 'use a can opener'. Also, one NEEDS to know, or have the knowledge of, 'what a refrigerator is' IF they WANT to explain, 'what a refrigerator is', to "another" human being.
But WHY can EVERY other animal function, perform, capture, prepare, and/or eat food without knowing left from right or front from back, but the human being animal, supposedly, can NOT perform absolutely ANY thing without knowing left from right or front from back?
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:45 pm
Everybody takes for granted how a faucet, a light switch, and a stove work, how to boil water, hammer a nail, or use a knife. No animal knows any of these things or needs to, but a human being could not live without knowing them.
LOL You are joking here, right?
Human beings do NOT 'need' to know ANY of these things. IN FACT, human beings did NOT know these things, and yet the human being is HERE, NOW. Therefore, this is the ONLY evidence NEEDED to PROVE that what you say here is incorrect. Thee actual Truth IS human beings do NOT 'need' to know how these things.
They 'just happen' to know these things. Human beings CAN and HAVE lived for millions of years without knowing these things.
Just like EVERY OTHER ANIMAL the human being animal does NOT 'need' to know how faucets, light switches, nor stoves work, they also certainly do NOT need to know how to boil water, hammer a nail, nor use a knife (which by the way some apes have probably been taught how to use a knife as well).