Everyone is qualia blind

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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AlexW
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by AlexW »

SteveKlinko wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 2:25 pm We are still Conscious Entities in whatever Reality we exist in.
Not necessarily.

In a simulation its not the system that is conscious, but rather the controlling entity, everything within the system is artificial. The characters appear to be conscious entities, but are actually not.

In a non physical universe there is no external controller, but there are also no separate, physical entities that could be conscious, its rather the whole system itself that is conscious... you could say the system is consciousness itself.
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henry quirk
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what's the question again?

Post by henry quirk »

AlexW wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 10:42 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 2:25 pm We are still Conscious Entities in whatever Reality we exist in.
Not necessarily.

(1)In a simulation its not the system that is conscious, but rather the controlling entity, everything within the system is artificial. The characters appear to be conscious entities, but are actually not.

(2)In a non physical universe there is no external controller, but there are also no separate, physical entities that could be conscious, its rather the whole system itself that is conscious... you could say the system is consciousness itself.
So...

(1)We know we aren't livin' in a simulation cuz I'm conscious of the world around me and aware of myself (as I presume any-and every-one readin' this to also be).

...and...

(2)We know this Reality is physical cuz I know myself to be a discrete entity (as I presume any-and every-one readin' this to also be).
AlexW
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by AlexW »

henry quirk wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:38 pm (1)We know we aren't livin' in a simulation cuz I'm conscious of the world around me and aware of myself (as I presume any-and every-one readin' this to also be).

...and...

(2)We know this Reality is physical cuz I know myself to be a discrete entity (as I presume any-and every-one readin' this to also be).
In a nighttime dream you also "know yourself to be a discrete entity" - but you are for sure not physical (even, while in the dream, you might still believe you are)
All I am saying is: Check the facts - not the thought up facts gained from thousands of years of thinking, but the facts you experience directly here and now, all the time (and be actually honest about them, not just "oh yeah... I think I experience a physical world, thus it must be true...")
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henry quirk
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by henry quirk »

In a nighttime dream you also "know yourself to be a discrete entity" - but you are for sure not physical (even, while in the dream, you might still believe you are)

Of course I am. When I dream I'm havin' a kind of natural hallucination. That is: a physical entity (me) is hallucinating (not astrally projectin').


Check the facts

That's all I do. Offer me some.
AlexW
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by AlexW »

henry quirk wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 12:53 am Of course I am. When I dream I'm havin' a kind of natural hallucination. That is: a physical entity (me) is hallucinating (not astrally projectin').
Haha... yes, yes... but I guess you know I am talking about the dream character, and not sleeping beauty :-)
henry quirk wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 12:53 am Check the facts

That's all I do. Offer me some.
The facts of direct experience?
Simply look, hear, taste, feel - and check if the information that thought offers about the experience is actually to be found in the experience itself or if it is only a "logical interpretation".
If you look at "Cup of tea on desk" - does the direct experience of seeing contain any of these objects, does it know anything of one thing on top of another thing, of location, of physicality..? What does it actually contain?

I am not saying that the interpretation is to be avoided - I am simply saying its an interpretation of a fact - of direct experience - and not itself fact. The question is: Are you treating an interpretation as if it were a fact?
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henry quirk
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

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the dream character, and not sleeping beauty

There is no dream character, there's just lil old real me havin' a natural hallucination.


Are you treating an interpretation as if it were a fact?

*Not really, no. For example: there's an apple on my table. Said apple exists independent of me, exists no matter what I, or anyone, thinks or believes or feels about it.

Then there's what I think, believe, or feel about the apple (I like apples, but this one is a bit emaciated, hell it's down-right scrawny, so -- while I like apples -- I do not like this particular apple, Sam-I-Am, and I will not eat it on a plane or train, nor will I eat on a boat or with a goat).

So: there's what is, and there's my opinion on what is.

If my head is screwed on straight, my opinion on what is will align with what (actually) is; if my head is askew then my opinion on what is will stand in opposition to what (actually) is.

Example:

Me and Stan are enjoyin' conversation over an active fire-pit. Stan was burned bad as a kid, never got over the trauma, is a'feared of the open flame. Me, never traumatized, grew up understanding what fire is, how to use it to my benefit, how to avoid gettin' hurt by it.

I say my opinion on what is aligns well with what (actually) is while Stan's opinion on what is is not well-aligned with what (actually) is.

So?









*meaning: most of the time, no; but once in a blue moon, yeah...I'm only human...*shrug*
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henry quirk
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some categories

Post by henry quirk »

*There's Reality (and all the things in it).

**There's what I know about Reality (and all the things in it).

***There's what I think I know about Reality (and all the things in it).

*Reality---**Knowledge of Reality---***Opinions about Reality
AlexW
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by AlexW »

henry quirk wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 2:18 am There is no dream character, there's just lil old real me havin' a natural hallucination.
Do you also know that while you are dreaming?
I am not saying that lucid dreams are impossible, but most people don't remain lucid when they are dreaming...
henry quirk wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 2:18 am For example: there's an apple on my table.
To me, thats already an interpretation.

What I was referring to is what is actually experienced before you can state "there's an apple on my table".
What is the experience "apple on table" actually "made of" in its most basic, simple form.

I like the rest of your story - especially the Dr. Suess part - but I don't think we'll get anywhere discussing it...
Its more about what we all have in common - in terms of direct experience - and not how past experiences shaped our diverse mindset/beliefs of today.
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by AlexW »

henry quirk wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 3:07 am *There's Reality (and all the things in it).
Ok... I would say: there is direct experience (its all you actually can "know" - and I am not talking about conceptual knowledge) - and I would also say that direct experience = reality, but if it has "things in it" is a different cup of tea...
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henry quirk
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

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Do you also know that while you are dreaming?

Most of the time, no. Not seein' your point.


To me, thats already an interpretation.

Actually, it's me communicatin' sumthin' to you. It's not an actual description of me observin' the apple.


Its more about what we all have in common - in terms of direct experience - and not how past experiences shaped our diverse mindset/beliefs of today.

What we have in common are generally similar bodies/brains. Extendin' from that tangible similarity come a cluster of somewhat similar intangibles (perspectives, opinions, prejudices, etc.).

Example: red is in the light, our eyes apprehend red in the light similarly, our brains process and catalog the apprehended red similarly. That is: there's an incredibly high likelihood we both see and understand red in the same way (does that make me pro or anti qualia?). Where we can diverge is in our individual takes on red (you may like red; I may be meh about red, or even dislike it).
Last edited by henry quirk on Thu May 14, 2020 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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henry quirk
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

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I would also say that direct experience = reality

I think Reality (and all the things in it) exists whether I or anyone experiences it (or anything in it).


but if it has "things in it" is a different cup of tea...

I see Reality as a mostly empty box with discrete things in it (the universe is mostly empty; what matter there is is mostly hydrogen; an extremely tiny percentage of matter is organized/complex; an even tinier percentage of that tiny percentage is mobile & self-replicating (alive); an even tinier percentage of that tiny percentage is self-aware).
Skepdick
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

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SteveKlinko wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 7:58 pm ?
.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

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Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:12 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 7:58 pm ?
.
AlexW
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

Post by AlexW »

henry quirk wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 4:11 am Do you also know that while you are dreaming?

Most of the time, no. Not seein' your point.
Well... you said that "There is no dream character, there's just lil old real me havin' a natural hallucination."
Meaning: You only know that there is a "lil old real me havin' a natural hallucination" once you are awake, but not while you are dreaming ... while dreaming you actually think and behave as if you were this dream character... a dream character that actually exists in a non physical dream behaving as if it were physical ... that's all I am pointing out.
henry quirk wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 4:22 am I think Reality (and all the things in it) exists whether I or anyone experiences it (or anything in it).
Ok... that's what you (and of course most people) think, but it's not what you actually directly experience.
I am not saying that I don't also expect the bed and the house to still be there when I wake up in the morning, all I am saying is that this expectation is based on acquired knowledge (on conceptual thought), not on direct experience - it could as well be that the house and the bed are "constructed" - like a dream - as soon as you open your eyes in the morning... you wouldn't know the difference.
henry quirk wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 4:22 am I see Reality as a mostly empty box with discrete things in it (the universe is mostly empty; what matter there is is mostly hydrogen; an extremely tiny percentage of matter is organized/complex; an even tinier percentage of that tiny percentage is mobile & self-replicating (alive); an even tinier percentage of that tiny percentage is self-aware).
Thats not what you see but what you think. You cannot (literally) see all these things you just described.
I, for my part, like to base my interpretations on what I actually see, hear, smell, taste and feel - and only secondary on what I think about it (I know the common way how people function is the exact opposite - they base their interpretations on thought about thought about thought about... and only to a very small degree on what they actually experience - guess it depends where the focus of awareness lies most of the time...)
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henry quirk
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Re: Everyone is qualia blind

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while dreaming you actually think and behave as if you were this dream character... a dream character that actually exists in a non physical dream behaving as if it were physical ... that's all I am pointing out.

Speakin' only for me: when I dream (hallucinate) I'm me, and I'm experiencin' phantasmagoria not a coherent movie. There's no mistakin' dream for reality. I may not be lucid while dreamin' but I'm also not stupid.


Ok... that's what you (and of course most people) think, but it's not what you actually directly experience.

Of course it is. You assume cuz a person has past experiences against which he gauges current experiences that he's somehow hobbled. That is: you believe cuz I know about fire that I'm incapable of experiencin' fire.

That's silly.


I am not saying that I don't also expect the bed and the house to still be there when I wake up in the morning, all I am saying is that this expectation is based on acquired knowledge (on conceptual thought), not on direct experience

On-going direct experience, what a person sees, smells, hears, tactilely feels, tastes, informs that dynamic catalog you call acquired knowledge. Acquired knowledge allows a person to more keenly judge what he apprehends directly (the fire he sees, smells, feels, and hears also burns so he should take care).


it could as well be that the house and the bed are "constructed" - like a dream - as soon as you open your eyes in the morning... you wouldn't know the difference.

No, the bed, the house, the land, the planet, the Sol system, the Milky Way, the local cluster, and on and on: all real.


Thats not what you see but what you think.

That's what I know.


You cannot (literally) see all these things you just described.

I can't see the interior of an atom either, but I know it's there. In this marvelous age, we have machines that extend our senses, and machines that supplement our thinkin' & reasonin'.


I, for my part, like to base my interpretations on what I actually see, hear, smell, taste and feel

Not surprisin', not remarkable: we all do that.


I know the common way how people function is the exact opposite

That's not true.
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